Belief a Choice?

[Kurieuo]

I am going to end my response here with some final remarks to others reading and those who have responding to rstrats.

Bypassing rstrats' opening sentences which generalize what Christians say combined with setting up a Biblical strawman which ignores Scripture's words about seeking after God, God revealing Himself to us, and believing in the face of proof not in spite of it. His "final 'jab' of proof against Christianity was the fact that [HE] COULD NOT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING [HE] DID TO DO OTHERWISE."

This might be his final 'jab', but it certainly is not a proof or fact until proven. However, he expects everyone here to accept what he says as true based on his own experience of what he feels is the case. His feelings might convince him, but so? Feelings are hardly proof, and certainly feelings make it by no means fact. His feelings might convince him, but they do not convince me. I think it also prudent to ask ourselves in what ways has he sought out God. He says "in spite of everything" he could not choose to believe. What comprises "everything"? How has he sought after God? Has rstrats read often recommended Christian books such as CS Lewis' Mere Christianity, Craig's Reasonable Faith or seriously considered the historical arguments for claims surrounding Christ by the likes of Habermaus? If not, it seems to me rstrats may have not done very much at all.

Given this, let's re-translate what is perhaps the core sentence of rstrat's OP which has in my opinion received much more attention than it really should have. All we have as his final 'jab' against Christianity are his feelings that he can not choose to believe in Christ despite having not done very much to help conjure up such beliefs. Ouch!

To then extend his experience and feelings about not being able to believe in Christ (a historical figure), by asking Christians to demonstrate to him that they can CHOOSE to believe in abstract fictional creatures such as leprechauns, well this is obviously more an attempt at ridicule than a serious question. Ridicule based on one of the Atheist's favourite dismissals of God through invoking more abstract concepts and beliefs such as Santa Claus, Spaghetti monster or "leprechauns".

Rstrats, you have had your fun. You have already admitted in the opening paragraph of your OP that you want to take 'jabs' at Christianity. There are many other boards on the Internet dedicated to this, however if you read our board purpose, you will notice this board is intended for a Christian community: "This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civil discussions about Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated." As such, I will leave you to a last response here, but as you are not the intended audience of this board, I request you to respect the board purpose that you agreed to upon registering and move on.

[rstrats]

Kurieuo,

re: “ Rstrats, you have had your fun. You have already admitted in the opening paragraph of your OP that you want to take 'jabs' at Christianity.”

I never said that. And there is no way that I would ever want to do that.

re: “This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is 'not' for them...”

I never said that or even implied that.

re: “...who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs.”

I have not done that, unless you consider that my belief that beliefs cannot be consciously CHOSEN is putting down an “essential Christian belief”. I would like to believe otherwise. I thought I might get some help here from those who say that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Instead I've gotten nothing but grief from the “christians” on this board.

I'm through and I'll move on as you ordered.

[B. W.]

Rstrats,

Too bad you did not answer these question because in these you would find your own answer...

Do you believe what your teachers taught you?

How did you learn your above stated quotes of logic?

Do you believe in yourself?

You do believe in yourself as this is obvious from all your postings. Therefore you do believe in something.

It is equally obvious that you believe in what you have been taught as you parrot many prominent atheist teachers therefore, you believe.

Since you do believe in things you deem worthy to believe, belief exist as faith. If you do not have faith in yourself or your own postulations then you do not exist. The evidence to everyone of us here on this board show that you typed your response; therefore, we know you that exist. God typed — created the universe, yet, you appear to believe that belief/faith is impossible or at the very most — stupid and archaic. Yet, you believe what some of your teachers have taught and you have faith in your answers and yourself. See the contradiction?

A wiser man than I am wrote this:

“What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.” Romans 1:19-23 ESV

Look around. The complexities of life and it origins and origins of matter and material and the fine tune balance that makes life possible on this planet. Why do we Christians believe the way we do — we look around and see how someone typed complex calculations concerning the universe and life leaving us pretty big fingerprint for humanity all to look at. Someone left it.
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[Cross.eyed]

Cross.eyed,

re: “Without faith that something can be true, we cannot will ourselves to believe it.”

How do you define “faith” and can it consciously be CHOSEN?

Faith and belief are synonymous, as in fidelity to ones promises-a conscious choosing to remain loyal to something or someone.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we have a lot of blind faith in our everyday lives, exp; We go to bed at night with a belief that we will wake up the next morning even though we have no proof or evidence of that expectation.
There are many realists who would think "I may die before morning." in other words, since the possibility exists for either life or death, this would be a conscious revelation. Certainly, most would have a faith that they will awake because of past experience which is a conscious choice gleaned from awaking everyday so far, knowing that the opposite could happen.

My own experience was a time of agnosticism for a period in my life and one thought (a very simple one) was that out of nothing comes nothing. When I weighed the alternatives, I discovered there was logic in the possibility of a supreme being having created the universe. This thought was a conscious decision.

Now, mind you, I did not immediatly climb on board and begin worshipping the Christian God.
I looked into other religions and after considerable thought, found them lacking-another conscious thought(s).
After several years, I decided (another conscious thought) Christianity had the most evidence for belief.
But yet I still didn't want to lose my so-called independence and would not bow to any god.

The time came when reality set in-that I did not have my own self and when reason triumphed, I gave my life to Christ-another conscious decision!

[B. W.]

...The time came when reality set in-that I did not have my own self and when reason triumphed, I gave my life to Christ-another conscious decision!

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