Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:Faith is not the absense of doubt

Really? So a person can believe but have doubt at the same time? A person can believe that there is God exists, but at the same time doubt it? A person can believe that Jesus has saved them, but at the same time doubt it?

Seems self-contradictory to me.

On the other hand, "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and being certain of what we do not see" (Heb 11:1, NIV).

You have to deal with the doubt it you want someone to "respond in faith," jlay. Otherwise, their salvaton is a matter of their own will . . .

"I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" Mark 9:24

Sure, people of faith have doubts. Even Billy Graham spoke of His. Some of the greatest Christian minds talk about doubts. We must look at the whole counsel on the matter of faith. Obviously Heb. 11 (the faith chapter) is contextually painting a picture of the power of faith, for those who were looking ahead to the coming Messiah.

Of course you have to respond in faith. That is my point.

their salvaton is a matter of their own will

Our will has nothing to do with what Christ accomplised on the cross. Everything we need for salvation is done through the work of Christ and Christ alone. Yet, the bible is clear that we are saved by grace through faith. God has entrusted us with something. Response. And yes, the human will is involved in repsonse.
Courage is not the absence of fear. It is one's response to fear that determines courage. It is how one repsonds to doubt that results in faith. Fear of the unknown is a doubt. Trusting God in spite of your doubts. What is that? Faith.

You have to know what area of doubt you are dealing with. The doubt and outright disbelief of an atheist? The doubts of one God is working on, but has yet to trust in Him? The doubts of one who has believed? Kioku has provided many lines of thinking that I'd like to get to the bottom of. On one hand the claim of being Christian. On the other, doubting wheter God even exist. This doubt would give me concern as to whether someone is Christian.

However, in another sense K is implying that he is just needing some confirmation. Kind of like laying out the fleece.

So, I'd like to know just what we are dealing with before I start delving into philosophical discussion about animals having morals and ethics.

I am certain of what I hope for, but that does not mean I do not have doubts on different matters of faith. Have you ever struggled to grasp the revelation of scripture? Ever struggled with understanding? Ever sinned in your Christian walk? Ever been at a crossroads, and wondered, "which path?" Ever wondered, "is this where God wants me?"

I hope that clears up any so called contradictions.

Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.

You can't on one hand say that you can have faith and at the same time doubt, and then on the other hand, turn around and start talking about having faith but really having doubts in other areas. Obviously, I have no problem with the second. That is precisely how I take your first quoted verse. It is obvious that I can believe one thing and have doubts about another. What is not obvious is that I can believe one thing and also doubt it.

In short, I CANNOT have faith and still doubt so long as we are talking about the same thing. I cannot say that I have faith in God, and then doubt He exists. I cannot say I have faith in Christ, and then doubt that I am really saved. Clearly, again, I can have faith in God and have doubts about my salvation, but that is simply because I don't believe the Gospel. Who, after all, says that believing in God is the same as believing unto salvation? Likewise, I can have faith in Christ and consequently know I am saved, and yet doubt that I am in His will at any given time. Again, believing one is not the same as believing the other.

Thus, I come back to my point. You keep telling kioku to "respond in faith," but faith presuppose belief. How can he respond in faith if he has doubts? It is impossible. One must remove doubt before one can have faith. The two are mutually exclusive.

I don't think we are going to get together on this one, because you insist on applying a broad stroke to the word doubt. I tried to give examples that demonstrate that doubt can and does take many forms. Unbelief, uncertainty, worry, anxiety, lack of information, etc. I also clearly stated that there is no point in going off on all these tangents with Kioku until we really know what area of doubt we are truly dealing with. The input has been conflicting to say the least.

You can't on one hand say that you can have faith and at the same time doubt

Mark 9:24 just did.

Did you know everything there was about the faith when you responded?
Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

Do you think there are those who are convinced in their mind that they are saved, but are not?
Jesus sure implied there would be.

Again, jlay, I did not say that faith and doubt cannot coexist in the same person. Against that, I affirmed that it can and does. What I said is that faith and doubt concerning the same thing cannot exist in the same person. When I was saved, I had NO DOUBT about my salvation. I had plenty of doubt and ignorance about a lot of other subjects that I today hold dear.

Picture the total body of Christian knowledge as a set of propositions A, B, and C. Suppose A is what I must believe to be saved. By believing A, does that mean that I also must understand and adhere to both B and C? No. In fact, I can believe A and reject both B and C. However, if I believe A, I cannot ALSO say that I doubt A, for that would mean that I do not, in fact, believe A in the first place.

Thus, a person may put their faith in God for salvation and be saved and at the same time have many doubts relative to a wide variety of issuse we encounter in Christian theology. However, a person CANNOT "put their faith in God" and, at the same time, doubt God's existence. A person cannot "put their faith in Christ" and, at the same time, doubt that Christ has saved them.

You, jlay, are asking people to do something that is impossible. You CANNOT respond in faith when you do not believe the thing you are supposedly responding to. You cannot say, "Hey, I don't believe X, so therefore, I'm going to place my faith in it." If a person does not believe X, it is incumbant upon us to find out why they do not believe X and remove those barriers so that they can be persuaded by positive evidence. Once they BELIEVE X, then they can decide whether or not they want to put their faith in it.

When someone like Kioku openly admits their fundamental doubts about things like God's existence, you cannot reply by saying, "Well just put your faith in God, brother!" You have to look for the source of doubts and help dispel them. By exorting people to trust what they don't believe without going through that process is at best useless and and worst destructive and demoralizing; destructive because it implies that the person's disbelief is a matter of will, and if they can't choose to believe, then something must be wrong with them; demoralizing because it puts a person in a hopeless situation. You are only offering a command without giving the means to accomplish it.

Isn't this a matter of trust? Faith is not the absense of doubt. Just as courage is not the absense of fear. What you feed grows and what you starve dies. Will you respond with belief? Could you not say, that regardless of my feelings, I am going to purpose in my heart that the claims of Christ are true and endeavor to follow that truth.

I guess this is the post you are questioning. And in re-reading it, I was erroneous in answering at all because Kioku has claimed to a Christian, and also claimed to question God's existence. I should have been more careful in my answer.

we are in agreement, essentially. Like I already said. I don't see how you could deny the existence of God and be a Christian. That doesn't jive.

You, jlay, are asking people to do something that is impossible.

With man this is impossible. God is working in the life of EVERY person, regardless of how far they may feel from God in their own mind. Salvation is not a feeling. And according to the truth of God's word He has provided them with the basics of what they need to take a step of belief. In fact Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness even though he didn't have new covenant knowledge of Jesus. So, he had faith in the light that God had given him. Kioku has something. God has given light to everyman. No one has put their faith in Christ that has not been responding to the pull of God on their lives BEFORE they are saved. Kioku needs to respond to what he has now. Not discussions that lead us to questions of whether dogs have morals or not.

When someone like Kioku openly admits their fundamental doubts about things like God's existence, you cannot reply by saying, "Well just put your faith in God, brother!"

Sheew. did I say it like that? You are right. But, read the whole thread. He said in one part he was a Christian. He says in one post he knows there is a god, but is unsure if there is an afterlife. Then in another, he is uncertain whether god is at al. That's my point, he is inconsistent in what he claims are his doubts.



If anyone reads through 1st John and doesn't feel doubts is either confused, or Jesus.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Have you walked just as Jesus did without fail? I confess, I have not. Could you see how these verses could bring forth doubts for a believer who has stumbled into sin?

I think we are in broad enough agreement that the only part of your post I need to comment on is this:

jlay wrote:If anyone reads through 1st John and doesn't feel doubts is either confused, or Jesus.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Have you walked just as Jesus did without fail? I confess, I have not. Could you see how these verses could bring forth doubts for a believer who has stumbled into sin?

I read these verses and feel absolutely no doubts. I'm certainly not Jesus, and I think anybody who doubts because of these is clearly confused, considering the fact that the same epistle says that he wrote so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

Now, if his writings cause you to doubt, then his writings fail in helping you KNOW you have life. Perhaps, then, if these verses cause you to doubt, you've misunderstood the meaning? In fact, let's just take it one step further -- you've confessed you sometimes don't keep his commandments. Therefore, the text plainly says that if you say you know God that you are a liar. If you don't walk like Jesus did and claim to know Him, then you are a liar.

How can this give you doubts at all, jlay? It seems to me that if this would give you any doubts at all, you may as well be honest with yourself and say that, by your interpretation, you can't be saved at all. Care to elaborate, then, for me?

Bottom line: when you look at your life and this verse forces you to doubt, what is it that you look at that negates that doubt? How can you reconcile that with this verse?

Yes, John says I write THESE things that you may know that you have eternal life. Chapters 1 through 4 are those things.

The doubts I deal with are not some nail biting, hand wringing exercise.
I think it is the same kind of thing when Paul says, examine yourself to see if you are IN the faith. When I examine myself, woe is me.

How do I reconcile it. i don't. God did. I look to the cross, knowing I am hopeless apart from it. I don't walk around like some of these, "I know that I know that I know," chest puffed out crowd. Many will say to him on that day, Lord, Lord....
I'm sorry but that is pride. paul is even transparent with us in Romans, expressing doubts. And he is reconciled by going right back to the cross.

i think a lot of Christians suffer inside because many think we are supposed to walk around with a big S on our shirts, saying, "yep, I''ve never doubted at all." And they are afraid to confess one to another, because of comments like yours. Saying you CANT think this or that, when the bible is full of examples of people who did.

It seems to me that if this would give you any doubts at all, you may as well be honest with yourself and say that, by your interpretation, you can't be saved at all.

Isn't that pretty much what Christ did? He took away any hope of saving one's self. "Apart from me you can do nothing." Of course one can be saved. And isn't sanctification a continuing work? Paul said, "I die daily."

If the text says taht if you sin you don't know Christ, if you admit you have sinned, then how can you say you know Christ?

I'm with you. I see where you are going.

1 John 1:8,9
Romans 10:9
eph 2:8,9
John 3:16

Good. So I'm glad you know Christ (and for the record, I don't doubt that). Then what do you do with the passage we've been talking about? It sounds like you have a contradiction. On one hand, one passage says you are saved because you have put your faith in Christ. On the other hand, another passage says you are not saved because you sin. If you rightly believe the former, how do you handle the latter while taking it seriously?

It's been pinging away at me even more. Why wouldn't he give me a sign? Why wouldn't he give us more proof he's there? It's very cruel. I don't see how it could work out like that. Why wouldn't he make it more obvious? Why doesn't he show he's there like he did to the people in the Bible?

I've seen a psychologist, but it hasn't helped at all. It's been a little more than a week and I feel even worse. I just don't see how there's a point or any meaning to anything if there isn't a God.

I just want something solid to go on. I've read and done nothing but that practically the whole time I've been worrying. While I must admit some are good pieces of evidence, they don't feel like 100% solid proof to me..

I'm losing my faith or I might have none left.

If it is your faith, I'd say, you are right.

God has given each man a measure of faith.

It's been pinging away at me even more. Why wouldn't he give me a sign? Why wouldn't he give us more proof he's there? It's very cruel. I don't see how it could work out like that. Why wouldn't he make it more obvious? Why doesn't he show he's there like he did to the people in the Bible?

Have you thought about reading B.W.'s book? He posts here on this board. That is one profound testimony

Those who seek Him with all their heart will seek Him and find Him.

While there is some legitimacy to your questions, it seems to me that you are consuming on one thing. Is that a heart seeking after God, or a person determined to pacify their own selfish motives? Only you can answer that. I just know that God's hand is not too short. And if motives are pure, God can and will reach anyone, anywhere. I mean we have Christians in Iran afterall. They fear for their lives daily, and your big concern is whether God is going to perform for you. I think of the millions of martyrs who had less "proof," as you would say, than you do, yet went to their graves for their faith.

I've seen a psychologist

Depending on the area of counsel that could do more harm than good.

I just want something solid to go on.

Wouldn't we all. The bible demonstrates that God has revealed himself in very bold ways to some, but also in very subtle ways. I had a very bold encounter in my youth, that marked me for my life. Even my pastor has not experienced anything like I did. When you feel the hand of God on your person, you can't easily forget that. But that is not what gave me faith. No. In fact it was only after I had responded in faith, that I had this experience. I wasn't seeking an experience.

Maybe someone here can show all the evidence they have and somehow convince you. That is not my bag, but if it works for the glory of God, then so be it. I don't see how discussing whether dogs have will etc. is going to reslove your issue at all.
My concern from the start is not that you have enough apologetics material, but that you have never stepped into salvation to begin with. You have claimed to be a Christian, yet have provided several conflicting statements that would suggest that you have not experienced regeneration or saving faith. You said you took the test earlier in the thread. And you confessed that you would be judged a sinner in the eyes of God, and deserving of the punishment of Hell. Is that fair to say? Remember that if you have no faith, then you have no faith that Christ Jesus died so that your crimes against God could be legally satisfied.

In your opinion what is a bigger concern for you at this point. That God doesn't exist and you are going to simply go into nothing at death. Or, that you have sinned against a Holy and pure God, who sees even your thoughts, and that you will be judged according the truth and righteousness of His glorious standard, agaisnt which you have no defense, other than to say, "guilty."

I don't mean to be blunt, but that doesn't exactly help me at all.