"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
No Problem,jlay wrote:B.W.
Thanks for clarifying the Joyce Meyer thing. You had me scared there for a minute.
Where do my posts or the link I provided say what you claim?jlay wrote: I visited the link you provided and have read your posts. If the information is bad then whose fault is that?
If you are not prepared to answer my questions following your previous assertions I know you are not interested in telling the truth.jlay wrote:Bottom line:
In your understanding. Can one have a saving faith and NOT speak in tongues, yes or no?
It's a simple question, Tallman, and simple courtesy and basic debate etiquette means that you resond without silly prevarications. Yes or no....jlay wrote:Can one have a saving faith and NOT speak in tongues, yes or no?
It is tragic that that the doctrine of tongues has become so divisive. Originally they were not so but now are so that the body of Christ suffers.1 Co 12:25-27, “…that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.”
We see that there are varieties of gifts, service, and activities all by the same Spirit, same Lord, the same God who empowers. Besides another Trinitarian proof text here stating that God wants to empower people, we are being told God's will in all this, in verse 7 is for the common Good of the body of Christ.1 Co 12:4-6, “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.”
If then for the common good, then it will be fought against by whom Paul writes about in Ephesians chapter 6 so that there will be division, strife, envy, and evil work so no common good is made known (manifested clearly).1 Co 12:7, “To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”
Since each person is a member of the body belongs where God places them as a hand, eye, mouth, ear, etc and etc the point is that different parts of the body should avoid quarreling over gifts, service, and activities. Each part and each member of their respective part has a duty and each individual is empowered to do his/her part as the Lord so wills.1 Co 12:19, “If all were a single member, where would the body be?”
Not all have the same gifts, services, or activities…1 Co 12:18, “But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose…'
Now we come to tongues. Not all will speak with tongues but what are they? 1 Corinthians 13:1 gives us a hint:1 Co 12:27-30, “…Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.”
There are tongues of human language. God can use these however he so wills whether it be speaking in a human language never studied or known by the speaker to others who know the language spoken in, or someone who is a linguists, or whatever involving human speech. So be it as the Lord wills it to be used.1 Co 13:1, “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels…”
Some people keep strife and division alive by misapplying 1 Co 13:10, “but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” Using this verse to insinuate that the gifts have passed away. If this be true, then we have no chance to reach the common good mention in 1 Co 12.1Co 12:8-10 , “For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, :9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.”
The gifts, services, and activities have not passed away but are used by the Lord to instruct us all in how to manifest his Love realistically. Henceforth, the first lesson is to expose the lack of love we have toward one another. How? By the evidence of our strife, division, pride, etc that hinders God's love from maturing in our lives to its fullest.Gills Commentary says:
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come,.... When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,
"the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";''
which is what the apostle refers to here:
So what is the tongue issue exposing in each of you as well as me? What is the Lord working in you? What do each of us need to repent of so we can walk that most excellent way? May the Lord grant you and I the words of wisdom and knowledge on this …1 Co 1:10, “I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
1Co 12:19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Co 12:22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Perhaps it is because many are seeking the gift and not the giver.Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?”
Who says they are not active today?B. W. wrote: . . .Why aren't there more gifts active today? The problem is not with God - Maybe it is our lack of love that hinders God's Spirit to move in our lives more fully and richly? So what is the tongue issue, or the healing issue, or the gift issues, service issues, activity issues showing each of us?”
I must slightly disagree with this statement, not everyone who is saved will speak in tongues. I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me and I don't speak in tongues but the Holy Spirit has worked through me. So when you get saved you will not necessarily speak in tongues. You will have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone will receive the gift of speaking in tongues.FredFlanders wrote:And yes you will also speak in tongues and have access to all the gifts, the same as Christ did.
Gab,Gabrielman wrote:I must slightly disagree with this statement, not everyone who is saved will speak in tongues. I am saved and have the Holy Spirit in me and I don't speak in tongues but the Holy Spirit has worked through me. So when you get saved you will not necessarily speak in tongues. You will have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone will receive the gift of speaking in tongues.FredFlanders wrote:And yes you will also speak in tongues and have access to all the gifts, the same as Christ did.
Csle,cslewislover wrote:There are a number of threads on this already. It says clearly in the bible that not all have all the gifts. Some have some gifts, some have others. Salvation belongs to those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, and they will have love as He has love. Christ is not looking at our list of gifts as some kind-of entry into heaven requirement. It isn't up to a human to judge whether a person is saved or not, by looking at that person's gifts. This whole attitude goes against the principles that Christ taught, IMO. We are not to judge in that way.
Csle,cslewislover wrote:Some are given some gifts, some others, AFTER Christ is accepted as their savior (after they are already saved). After someone is already saved, the Holy Spirit works with them to promote repentance and works for the Lord's kingdom. But not all speak in tongues. Christ loves all that are his, and his followers need to do the same and not judge or put on a burden that is man-formulated. <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/John%2017.20-26" target=_blank lbsReference="John 17.20-26|ESV">John 17:20-26</A>
In Corinthians 12:7-11, Paul write that "a" manifestation of the Spirit is given each person, and then he provides the list of gifts (languages and their interpretation are at the bottom). He doesn't say that "the" manifestation of the Spirit is tongues, and after that you'll get other gifts. No, he gives a list again in 27-30, probably in order of relevance. I can say that because in the next verse, 31, he says to desire the "greater" gifts. Which are those? Well, he just gave them in order, and again, tongues is last. (See <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/esv/1%20 ... %2012.1-31" target=_blank lbsReference="1 Corinthians 12.1-31|ESV">1 Corinthians 12:1-31</A>). The scripture is pretty clear.
These threads have already discussed the matter if you wish to look at them and maybe post at one of them.
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... s&start=45
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... it=tongues
You can't judge if Gabrielman's spiritual experiences are not from the Holy Spirit. I also have had a number of experiences with the Holy Spirit and they did not involve speaking in tongues. God works to sanctify us, and to further his kingdom. This takes all kinds of gifts and help from the Spirit. Tongues is rarely needed. I have absolutely no desire to share my experiences with you since you have a belief that I believe goes against God's teaching, as provided in 1 Corinthians, especially.