Evidence for God from Science

Santa wrote:Alright, fair enough. But people come to be who they are based on their experiences - which means all 'souls' would have to start off the same. Say a child died, they never got to 'be' somebody. How could god judge them?

It would depend what family or area you were born in to as well. Different experiences mean a different person. A thief could've been an alter boy if he had've been born into a different family and gone on to help people - get what I'm saying?

So how can someone truly be judged fairly? People do have advantages.

This continues to lead me to believe a god wouldn't operate this way.

I don't believe God operates that way. As for children, some say there is an age of accountability, some say no. And if there is one, I've seen different ages given for the "cut-off" (lol). I believe God knows about them and what they believe.

I don't believe our experiences in life are all, or most, even. I believe we have a personality. There are kids in the same household who will end up being very different from one another. I don't think that someone who is inclined to be a thief would've been different, given different circumstances. There are ghetto thieves and there are white-collar thieves.

As far as those in other cultures or areas who don't have the gospel presented to them, I believe God calls them too. They can know about God though his creation, and God can speak to their hearts directly. There are examples of people in Muslim countries having visions of Christ, who then come to believe in Him. China tried to wipe out religion, yet it has the fastest growing Christian population in the world (at least, that's what I last heard).

I'd need to read more of the thread posts to answer more. But, since you keep saying you don't believe the bible is true and that you don't believe there is a God, it's hard to be motivated to both take the time to read all of that and to answer. Does that make sense?

Shouldn't your motivation be to help your god 'save' me or something? lol, seriously, I'm asking genuine questions here. I'm not denying gods existence for no reason. Read the previous pages.

So you WANT to by proselytized? Lol, sorry. I'll work around your denial of God and his truth. Sure, I very much would want to answer your questions to assist in your salvation, if you are here to not just spam or harass us. Most definitely. I don't have time everyday, necessarily, but I can see what I can do.

You have the entire creation, A God who died for your sins, the testimony of those who witnessed Him resurrected, His word, the testimony of believers. If you haven't heard any of these, then certainly you don't want to hear.

You shouldn't attribute the entire creation to god. It may have happened on its own. Don't sarcastically think "oh, so everything came from nothing" when the same thing can be said about god. If god was always there, why not the universe.

Anyway, just because the bible TELLS ME someone has died for my sins, and that other people believe, doesn't make it true.

Now, santa, this is a rather ludicrous statement. Would you say that to a murderer or a thief that "oh, your sorry...okay, I guess you don't need any consequences for you killing someone...okay, you don't have to go to jail"

But that's EXACTLY what god's going to do. He WILL let you get away with the consequences of killing someone, but only if you accept and believe in him, despite how sorry you actually are. It has to be both, apparently. Which is more ludicrous than my statement.

Someone being sorry should be enough. Just because they're skeptical or never got around to researching every detail about Christianity (it'd take forever, be realistic here) shouldn't matter.

It's not fair to reject you when you essentially think that He doesn't deserve to be praised?!?!? Ummm....you have rejected Him...it certainly doesn't sound like you are searching very hard to find Him or listen to Him.

I don't even know him. How can I love him more than my family? Oh, the bible say's he's great... but I still don't know him. Nor do I know he exists. Despite what you say, I believe a true god would understand that. I shouldn't have to have faith in a book because it tells me to. Where's the proof it's god's word anyway?

cslewislover wrote: I don't believe our experiences in life are all, or most, even. I believe we have a personality. There are kids in the same household who will end up being very different from one another. I don't think that someone who is inclined to be a thief would've been different, given different circumstances. There are ghetto thieves and there are white-collar thieves.

So where does our personality come from? It has to come from somewhere. Our souls can't have been that way immediately after they were created, that'd mean god made us the way we are - which pretty much means we're either destined for hell or heaven.

edit: Why is god so fixated on the bad anyway? What about the good people do in between? Or their personality over all - e.g. humour, friendliness, etc - does that not count?

Santa wrote:

cslewislover wrote: I don't believe our experiences in life are all, or most, even. I believe we have a personality. There are kids in the same household who will end up being very different from one another. I don't think that someone who is inclined to be a thief would've been different, given different circumstances. There are ghetto thieves and there are white-collar thieves.

So where does our personality come from? It has to come from somewhere. Our souls can't have been that way immediately after they were created, that'd mean god made us the way we are - which pretty much means we're either destined for hell or heaven.

I bet you know that that is one of the biggest mysteries of the faith. How can I answer? We have free will, yet we're predestined.

Ephesians 1:3-14.

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

See also Psalm 139.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

edit: Why is god so fixated on the bad anyway? What about the good people do in between? Or their personality over all - e.g. humour, friendliness, etc - does that not count?

To me it's more a matter of accepting God as our maker, and Lord. If we accept him, all the bad things will be washed away. He just can't be in the presence of sin, so it must be removed. He wants it removed so that we can be with Him, and He with us.

Santa wrote:

You have the entire creation, A God who died for your sins, the testimony of those who witnessed Him resurrected, His word, the testimony of believers. If you haven't heard any of these, then certainly you don't want to hear.

You shouldn't attribute the entire creation to god. It may have happened on its own. Don't sarcastically think "oh, so everything came from nothing" when the same thing can be said about god. If god was always there, why not the universe.

Anyway, just because the bible TELLS ME someone has died for my sins, and that other people believe, doesn't make it true

Let's take one thing at a time....the thread is about "why" not "is it so". there have been other thread dealing with whter or not it's true. Let's tackle the fairness issue.

Now, santa, this is a rather ludicrous statement. Would you say that to a murderer or a thief that "oh, your sorry...okay, I guess you don't need any consequences for you killing someone...okay, you don't have to go to jail"

But that's EXACTLY what god's going to do. He WILL let you get away with the consequences of killing someone, but only if you accept and believe in him, despite how sorry you actually are. It has to be both, apparently. Which is more ludicrous than my statement.

Oh, let's clarify....He can let you "get away" with murder because the CONSEQUENCE, His wrath, HAS been applied. The wrath of god for sin was taken by Christ. "He is the propitiation for sins". He took upon the consequence of sins . One who realizes who *they* are and who God is sees that they are sinful and that their standing with God is one deserving of wrath. God's gift of mercy is His son, but those that view that they have nothing for which *to be* sorry or that God is not someone deserving of worship is not going to be sorry.

You have already declared that you are not evil and that God is not worthy to be worshipped. Doesn't sound like you are sorry. For those who believe that Christ is who He said He is and did what He said He did, it is a belief that *we* need to be sorry

Someone being sorry should be enough. Just because they're skeptical or never got around to researching every detail about Christianity (it'd take forever, be realistic here) shouldn't matter.

Let's face it...one can only be sorry when they understand what they are sorry about and who they have offended. Consider a murderer who apologizes to a complete stranger, and not the relatives of the deceased. Or a thief who doesn't apologize to the one he or she has stolen from . Sound silly put like this. and being sorry for doing the bad things is a great start, and those who are, I believe God will show himself to.

It's not fair to reject you when you essentially think that He doesn't deserve to be praised?!?!? Ummm....you have rejected Him...it certainly doesn't sound like you are searching very hard to find Him or listen to Him.

I don't even know him. How can I love him more than my family? Oh, the bible say's he's great... but I still don't know him. Nor do I know he exists. Despite what you say, I believe a true god would understand that. I shouldn't have to have faith in a book because it tells me to.

It's not faith is a book, it's faith in a God, in His word, passed down through thousands of years. And to know Him all you have to do is read His word. It's more than a book, it's a testimony to Him, His relationships to His people. His letters to us.

Here you are, at an apologetics website. Are you truly looking? If you really want to find out, here is your chance. Otherwise you are declaring that He is not worth looking for. Not only that, you decalre that He has an "ego"....And that sounds pretty close to rejection to me.

Perhaps God is even now calling to you. are you going to miss the chance to hear Him? If so, then you can hardly complain about Him not revealing Himself to you. You have thousands of resources to draw upon, thousands of Christians, certainly many here. Thousands of books to read. Put your money where your mouth is. Read, read, read, and read some more. Stay here or visit other apologtics websites and ask questions. But don't come here, a website that declares God's word, to complain about not hearing God...

Do you have to be so patronising?

zoegirl wrote: Let's take one thing at a time....the thread is about "why" not "is it so". there have been other thread dealing with whter or not it's true. Let's tackle the fairness issue.

My thread is pretty much for any questions or thoughts I have. I'm here to hear what you guys have to say. It's not about one issue.

Now, santa, this is a rather ludicrous statement. Would you say that to a murderer or a thief that "oh, your sorry...okay, I guess you don't need any consequences for you killing someone...okay, you don't have to go to jail"

But that's EXACTLY what god's going to do. He WILL let you get away with the consequences of killing someone, but only if you accept and believe in him, despite how sorry you actually are. It has to be both, apparently. Which is more ludicrous than my statement.

Oh, let's clarify....He can let you "get away" with murder because the CONSEQUENCE, His wrath, HAS been applied. The wrath of god for sin was taken by Christ. "He is the propitiation for sins". He took upon the consequence of sins . One who realizes who *they* are and who God is sees that they are sinful and that their standing with God is one deserving of wrath. God's gift of mercy is His son, but those that view that they have nothing for which *to be* sorry or that God is not someone deserving of worship is not going to be sorry.

Can we keep things simple and clear?

Here's how the bible says things are: everyone sins, and god will only let people into heaven if they believe he exists. They also have to be genuinely sorry.

Here's what I have trouble with:

Would god really care if someone never came to the conclusion, while on Earth, that the bible was what it said it was, and that god was in fact real? Why does he care if people are naturally more skeptical than others? He'd have to understand this.

So, if someone like me were truly sorry for any wrong doings, shouldn't he accept that? Why does it all come down to whether or not we believe the bible's legit?

You have already declared that you are not evil and that God is not worthy to be worshipped. Doesn't sound like you are sorry. For those who believe that Christ is who He said He is and did what He said He did, it is a belief that *we* need to be sorry

Oh whatever. Obviously everyone makes mistakes, ones that they're sorry for, so god should accept that. And if they're not, then I dunno, it's up to him I guess. How can I consider god worthy of being worshiped if I'm not even sure of his existence?

It's not faith is a book, it's faith in a God, in His word, passed down through thousands of years. And to know Him all you have to do is read His word. It's more than a book, it's a testimony to Him, His relationships to His people. His letters to us.

Still don't know how we're expected to follow it blindly. How can we be sure it's nothing but a bunch of stories? Sometimes the age of the bible tends to appeal to people - oooh, so old and mysterious... it's gotta be true!

Here you are, at an apologetics website. Are you truly looking? If you really want to find out, here is your chance. Otherwise you are declaring that He is not worth looking for. Not only that, you decalre that He has an "ego"....And that sounds pretty close to rejection to me.

If I wasn't looking, I wouldn't be asking questions, would I? Quit making assumptions about me. You're not representing your god very well.

But don't come here, a website that declares God's word, to complain about not hearing God...

I'm not complaining. I'm simply posting my thoughts on why I can't come to believe the christian god exists. Geez, it's not that hard to understand.

Santa wrote:Do you have to be so patronising?

zoegirl wrote: Let's take one thing at a time....the thread is about "why" not "is it so". there have been other thread dealing with whter or not it's true. Let's tackle the fairness issue.

My thread is pretty much for any questions or thoughts I have. I'm here to hear what you guys have to say. It's not about one issue.

I wasn't being patronizing...let's take one thing at a time. It seems as if the two big issues are "does this make sense" and "is this true". I was saying we should tackle one thing bfore jubling up the issues.

[quote="']

Now, santa, this is a rather ludicrous statement. Would you say that to a murderer or a thief that "oh, your sorry...okay, I guess you don't need any consequences for you killing someone...okay, you don't have to go to jail"

But that's EXACTLY what god's going to do. He WILL let you get away with the consequences of killing someone, but only if you accept and believe in him, despite how sorry you actually are. It has to be both, apparently. Which is more ludicrous than my statement.

Oh, let's clarify....He can let you "get away" with murder because the CONSEQUENCE, His wrath, HAS been applied. The wrath of god for sin was taken by Christ. "He is the propitiation for sins". He took upon the consequence of sins . One who realizes who *they* are and who God is sees that they are sinful and that their standing with God is one deserving of wrath. God's gift of mercy is His son, but those that view that they have nothing for which *to be* sorry or that God is not someone deserving of worship is not going to be sorry.

Can we keep things simple and clear?

Here's how the bible says things are: everyone sins, and god will only let people into heaven if they believe he exists. They also have to be genuinely sorry.

Here's what I have trouble with:

Would god really care if someone never came to the conclusion, while on Earth, that the bible was what it said it was, and that god was in fact real? Why does he care if people are naturally more skeptical than others? He'd have to understand this. [/quote]

Yes He does care. And He is willing to come and show Himself to the skeptics. Haven't you heard of doubting thomas? Christ didn't criticize him for doubting. If fact, He was quite willing to let Thomas prove to Himself by touching the wounds and holes. Absolutely God is willing to be tested and examined.

wrote: So, if someone like me were truly sorry for any wrong doings, shouldn't he accept that? Why does it all come down to whether or not we believe the bible's legit?

Did you consider my examples? If a murderer says he is sorry but doesn't believe he offended the family whose relative he murdered, then would you consider that apology real? If a thief said he was sorry but looked at the person and didn't see why he offended that person, is that apology effective?

You have said that you aren't that bad. Then how can you be sorry?!?!

You have already declared that you are not evil and that God is not worthy to be worshipped. Doesn't sound like you are sorry. For those who believe that Christ is who He said He is and did what He said He did, it is a belief that *we* need to be sorry

Oh whatever. Obviously everyone makes mistakes, ones that they're sorry for, so god should accept that. And if they're not, then I dunno, it's up to him I guess. How can I consider god worthy of being worshiped if I'm not even sure of his existence?

That's why I said earlier that we should tackle one thing at a time. It's one thing to reject God....it's another when you reject Him but don't understand who it is you are rejecting. Let's just tackle who God is according to the Bible and what He did. One should completely understand what it being rejected.

It's not faith is a book, it's faith in a God, in His word, passed down through thousands of years. And to know Him all you have to do is read His word. It's more than a book, it's a testimony to Him, His relationships to His people. His letters to us.

Still don't know how we're expected to follow it blindly. How can we be sure it's nothing but a bunch of stories? Sometimes the age of the bible tends to appeal to people - oooh, so old and mysterious... it's gotta be true!

So put you r money where you mouth is! What books have you read explaining the significance of the stories. In fact, how much of the Bible have ou read? We aren't expected to follow it blindly! By all means examine it. But it doesn't sound as if you even know the basics of the Bible.

Here you are, at an apologetics website. Are you truly looking? If you really want to find out, here is your chance. Otherwise you are declaring that He is not worth looking for. Not only that, you decalre that He has an "ego"....And that sounds pretty close to rejection to me.

If I wasn't looking, I wouldn't be asking questions, would I? Quit making assumptions about me. You're not representing your god very well.

I'm not making assumptions. that's great if you are really looking. But pardon me if I say that it hasn't sounded like you are. That's not an assumption, that's pretty much reading what you say.

What have I done that's not representing God?!?!? I have defended my faith and took some time to explain it to you. I am heartily glad and rejoice if you are seriously looking. That's awesome. I hope, though, that you are willing to truly examine. It has sounded that you are here with a chip on your shoulder, with your mind already made up. If that's not true, then that's great. I am looking forward to talking with you.

But don't come here, a website that declares God's word, to complain about not hearing God...

I'm not complaining. I'm simply posting my thoughts on why I can't come to believe the christian god exists. Geez, it's not that hard to understand.

I'm simply saying that to come here, a site that is full of Christians willing to explain things to you, is a good sign that God has revealed himself to you.

well said, CSlewislover

zoegirl wrote: Did you consider my examples? If a murderer says he is sorry but doesn't believe he offended the family whose relative he murdered, then would you consider that apology real? If a thief said he was sorry but looked at the person and didn't see why he offended that person, is that apology effective?

Nope.

You have said that you aren't that bad. Then how can you be sorry?!?!

What I meant was I wasn't evil. Just bad at times, like everyone. I'll never consider myself evil.

But just because I don't think I'm evil, it doesn't mean I'm not sorry for anything bad I've done in the past. So, if I was genuinely sorry for any of that, god should accept me. It shouldn't matter if I ever got around to coming to the conclusion he existed. Some people just never will. He should understand that.

But the bible says believing in him is the only way. So I can't come to believe this god is as fair and just as he says he is, which leads me to think it simply can't be anything other than a story.

What have I done that's not representing God?!?!? I have defended my faith and took some time to explain it to you. I am heartily glad and rejoice if you are seriously looking. That's awesome. I hope, though, that you are willing to truly examine. It has sounded that you are here with a chip on your shoulder, with your mind already made up. If that's not true, then that's great. I am looking forward to talking with you.

I'm simply saying that to come here, a site that is full of Christians willing to explain things to you, is a good sign that God has revealed himself to you.

I'm open to what you all have to say - this isn't the first time I've been here anyway. :) I was here in 2005 back when I used to believe - I read a lot of the articles back then as well. But now that I'm older I've questioned it more... that's all. ;)

For the past two years I've been 110% sure god doesn't exist - but the other night I started thinking about it again and remembered this place... I pretty much came here to share why I didn't believe - to see what you guys thought and why you were so sure it was all real.

cslewislover wrote:To me it's more a matter of accepting God as our maker, and Lord. If we accept him, all the bad things will be washed away. He just can't be in the presence of sin, so it must be removed. He wants it removed so that we can be with Him, and He with us.

Makes sense I guess. But like I keep on saying, I don't see how he'd expect everyone to come to believe in him.
What about people with mental conditions etc? Or people living in poverty? He'd have to judge them somehow. It just makes his whole 'selection process' seem too weird.

Santa wrote:

cslewislover wrote:To me it's more a matter of accepting God as our maker, and Lord. If we accept him, all the bad things will be washed away. He just can't be in the presence of sin, so it must be removed. He wants it removed so that we can be with Him, and He with us.

Makes sense I guess. But like I keep on saying, I don't see how he'd expect everyone to come to believe in him.
What about people with mental conditions etc? Or people living in poverty? He'd have to judge them somehow. It just makes his whole 'selection process' seem too weird.

It makes us dependent on Him, instead of having both free will and independence. Nothing is independent from God.

I pretty much came here to share why I didn't believe - to see what you guys thought and why you were so sure it was all real.

I believe because I've had personal experiences with the Lord and the Holy Spirit. I don't know if I'd ever come to believe the bible without my initial experience. After that initial time, I devoured the bible. The Lord was (and is) everything to me. So it is actually impossible for me to relate to someone who is looking for rational explanations alone, and I don't know if I can explain the faith that way to a degree that would "convert" someone. I like apologetics and read on it so I can know what I believe and help others. But it's the work of the Holy Spirit to draw people, and then make them grow in the Lord.

Santa wrote:

zoegirl wrote: Did you consider my examples? If a murderer says he is sorry but doesn't believe he offended the family whose relative he murdered, then would you consider that apology real? If a thief said he was sorry but looked at the person and didn't see why he offended that person, is that apology effective?

Nope.

You have said that you aren't that bad. Then how can you be sorry?!?!

What I meant was I wasn't evil. Just bad at times, like everyone. I'll never consider myself evil.


But just because I don't think I'm evil, it doesn't mean I'm not sorry for anything bad I've done in the past. So, if I was genuinely sorry for any of that, god should accept me. It shouldn't matter if I ever got around to coming to the conclusion he existed. Some people just never will. He should understand that.

Would oyu say that to the person whose identity has been stolen but the thief isn't convinced that he has offended the accuser? you agreed with me above and yet want God to "just understand"? To apologize for something *to* someone one must actually apologize to someone not just say "I;m sorry" in general.

But the bible says believing in him is the only way. So I can't come to believe this god is as fair and just as he says he is, which leads me to think it simply can't be anything other than a story.

Hmm...but let's just suppose, just for the sake of supposing, that *your* lack of belief is due to your lack of examination or even your willful lack of examination.

What have I done that's not representing God?!?!? I have defended my faith and took some time to explain it to you. I am heartily glad and rejoice if you are seriously looking. That's awesome. I hope, though, that you are willing to truly examine. It has sounded that you are here with a chip on your shoulder, with your mind already made up. If that's not true, then that's great. I am looking forward to talking with you.

I'm simply saying that to come here, a site that is full of Christians willing to explain things to you, is a good sign that God has revealed himself to you.

I'm open to what you all have to say - this isn't the first time I've been here anyway. I was here in 2005 back when I used to believe - I read a lot of the articles back then as well. But now that I'm older I've questioned it more... that's all.

For the past two years I've been 110% sure god doesn't exist - but the other night I started thinking about it again and remembered this place... I pretty much came here to share why I didn't believe - to see what you guys thought and why you were so sure it was all real.

...glad you are here!! what books have you read?

CSLEwis lover, i like what you say here.

cslewislover wrote: I believe because I've had personal experiences with the Lord and the Holy Spirit. I don't know if I'd ever come to believe the bible without my initial experience. After that initial time, I devoured the bible. The Lord was (and is) everything to me. So it is actually impossible for me to relate to someone who is looking for rational explanations alone, and I don't know if I can explain the faith that way to a degree that would "convert" someone. I like apologetics and read on it so I can know what I believe and help others. But it's the work of the Holy Spirit to draw people, and then make them grow in the Lord.

So, an advantage for you then? Can I ask what happened?

zoegirl wrote:
Would oyu say that to the person whose identity has been stolen but the thief isn't convinced that he has offended the accuser? you agreed with me above and yet want God to "just understand"? To apologize for something *to* someone one must actually apologize to someone not just say "I;m sorry" in general.

Why so? It's simple. You can be sorry and regret things you've done. And if god exists, he'd know that. There shouldn't be any 'accepting' of the bible required. Face it, some people will never be convinced, and why should they be? How does that make them any less deserving than anyone else to be accepted in to heaven?

Hmm...but let's just suppose, just for the sake of supposing, that *your* lack of belief is due to your lack of examination or even your willful lack of examination.

Does god expect EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. to extensively research everything about the bible? It's impossible. Some people will accept it more easily than others, based on their personality. Like I said before, people who live longer obviously have more time to research than others.

It doesn't matter how much you research, you can't ever be certain or convinced.

Santa wrote:So, an advantage for you then? Can I ask what happened?

Maybe an advantage, or maybe the only way this stubborn person would come to the Lord. I'm not going to describe my experiences on the board, and I've only shared them with believers or people whom I thought were believers.

Does god expect EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. to extensively research everything about the bible? It's impossible. Some people will accept it more easily than others, based on their personality. Like I said before, people who live longer obviously have more time to research than others.

It doesn't matter how much you research, you can't ever be certain or convinced.

You keep ignoring that Anthony Flew book. His book is not the only one of it's kind, but still. The guy was a really well known philosopher atheist. He found reason to be convinced. People who live longer won't necessarily have any more advantage in believing than a younger person. Older people can get stuck in their ways and in their thinking.

What is your desire? You don't sound like you desire to know the Lord, but did you really come here just to bug us? If you want to know Him, seek Him. Quit relying on your own ability to understand God or the bible, which you can't fully on your own. I don't know. If you love someone, are you going to love them after looking at a laundry list of characteristics only, or for some other reason? Is there nothing more to relationship and love than things you find rational and acceptable? Why don't you open up your heart (and keep your mind open, open it more, in fact) and invite the Lord in, and see if he accepts.