Evidence for God from Science

mandelduke,

In the manuscripts Ezekiel 13:20 says I am against those who teach to fly away to save their souls.

No, it says "hunt (tsuwd) souls to fly." That is why most translations says "hunt lives there as birds." The women were capturing, not leting fly, the souls. This is why God was going to "tear them from their arms." The souls had been captured, but God was going to set them free.

*le bump*

I fall toward the amillenial view, but I'm torn between a view of "ongoing tribulation" (that we are in it right now, and have been since our Lord left) and the idea of a post-tribulation rapture view. I think that if we are to be raptured it will be at the Second Coming and only then - there'll be no escaping the wrath of evil men and their ways. Christians in non-Western nations suffer immensely, so it really puts me off when people say that "we" as Christians have not entered tribulation yet. Ask the Christians in Pakistan, Egypt, Somalia, North Korea, or any other vile nation what they think about that. They suffer for the Lord so much. What do we know of tribulation? Eventually we will, I think, come to understand the word and its meaning in this perspective.

I'm not really a preterist in the notion that all events were in the past, but I think some were, and some are current, and some are to come in the future... But then I'm not an expert on Scripture nor have I read all of it yet, so I can't say for sure.

I could've written,almost verbatim, the post by "jeffreytonkevich" (Sorry if I misspelled,bro!)...and he is dead-on when he says that we Christians WILL endure the Great Tribulation. It would take eons to write down all of the places in the Holy Bible(KJV) where we are given, in one context or another, this very message. Study hard, Pray hard, and Trust in God Almighty!

Why would a loving God subject the Bride of His Only begotten Son to the Wrath of His Judgement during the 70th Week? Are we not forgiven our sins, covered by the Blood of the lamb? Of course we are!

The simple answer is: God will not subject the Bride of Christ to His Wrath during the 70th Week. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 makes the prophetic fact crystal clear; that Jesus saves His Bride "from the wrath to come." No "ifs, ands or buts" about it, Jesus will keep those who are alive at the time from the "wrath to come."

1 Thessalonians 5:9 repeats this definitive statement just as clearly, but adds that God has not destined the Bride of Christ for His wrath: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Finally, the Living Word of God in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father to the Son to John on Patmos tells us unequivocally: "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Just these three verses indicate the Harpazo will indeed occur, probably sooner than many realize.

There's a difference between being present during tribulation and being subjected to it. E.G., Jeremiah was present in Jerusalem when God brought judgment on it, but he was not subjected to that judgment.

PeteSinCA wrote:There's a difference between being present during tribulation and being subjected to it. E.G., Jeremiah was present in Jerusalem when God brought judgment on it, but he was not subjected to that judgment.

Yes, and for many that is a big difference. But even those are left behind on the Earth are not completely subjected to it. In Revelation 7, which is during the first half of the 70th Week, those who belong to Christ are given a spiritual seal on their foreheads. This seal is literally the name of God the Father and of Christ (Revelation 14:1) that is written on their foreheads, and this seal keeps them from harm as seven angels sequentially sound their trumpets bringing specific judgments upon the earth.

The sealed are the 144,000 virgin evangelists of Israel (and those they evangelize for Christ). These believers with the seal of God written on their foreheads are seen again in Revelation 9 and again in Revelation 14 when, specifically, the 144,000 are seen in Heaven before His throne.

This is not against anyone who believes in the pre-trib rapture and is not to be taken personally. I see it as a deception of God's people.

Two things bother me about the pre-trib rapture. The first is that it was unknown before the 1830's. The second is the me-first attitude it shows, like the "God wants to make you rich" teaching that people pay to hear. Most people probably never think about it this way, but are we special? Many prophets were killed, and the apostles were mostly killed, along with many in the early church, through history and even today in much of the world.

Noah had to spend 100 years building an ark before he got to board it. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo went into the furnace before the fourth man appeared. Daniel went to the lions knowing they could kill him. Joseph was sold as a slave and imprisoned before becoming the second most powerful man in Egypt. Even as the exodus from Egypt began, Israel had to go through the first few plagues, just as the Egyptians did. Don't you think he can sustain us through a few bad years?

Simply....Tribulation in the Bible means......Tribulation, or troubling times
Simply....Wrath in the Bible means........Wrath is a judgement that puts and end to all rebellion against God.

Tribulation has a spectrum. Everyone on this planet has tribulation or troubles. GREAT...in the Bible ...means GREAT..
GREAT Tribulation is still NOT WRATH....because all rebellion is still not quenched.

The GREAT tribulation is first....and is Good.....everything that my God does is GOOD...as we read in Matthew 5:10-12.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Sadly, here in America...we have forgotten that it is Truly an Honor to be persecuted and martyred for Christ and His Kingdom.
But...please do NOT BE DECEIVED...my brethren...Get Ready...the comforts of the world will not endure ...ask the Lord to
open our eyes... and we shall see that God has Eternal Rewards waiting...for those found faithful.

jcgood wrote:Simply....Tribulation in the Bible means......Tribulation, or troubling times
Simply....Wrath in the Bible means........Wrath is a judgement that puts and end to all rebellion against God.

Tribulation has a spectrum. Everyone on this planet has tribulation or troubles. GREAT...in the Bible ...means GREAT..
GREAT Tribulation is still NOT WRATH....because all rebellion is still not quenched.

The GREAT tribulation is first....and is Good.....everything that my God does is GOOD

Somewhere - maybe in the 19th or 20th Century - the phrase in which the word "tribulation" was modified by the adjective "great" and had the definite article, "the" morphed into a specific name, The Great Tribulation. There have been (and may yet be) great tribulations in the history of the church. The persecutions of the church in the USSR China could, quite appropriately, be termed great tribulations. The persecutions of Christians in countries like Egypt or Sudan or Pakistan or India or Burma (Myanmar) could arguably be called great tribulations. Paying attention to Biblical prophecy is good - "All scripture ... is good for teach, for reproof and for training in righteousness" - and living in light of the fact that Jesus will return, possibly but not definitely very soon, is good, too. Making Eschatology the core of one's Christian life is not healthy and causes tunnel vision.

jcgood wrote:Sadly, here in America...we have forgotten that it is Truly an Honor to be persecuted and martyred for Christ and His Kingdom.
But...please do NOT BE DECEIVED...my brethren...Get Ready...the comforts of the world will not endure ...ask the Lord to
open our eyes... and we shall see that God has Eternal Rewards waiting...for those found faithful.

It's weird to say this, but the church in the Roman Empire lost something valuable when Constantine first declared Christianity tolerated and then the favored religion of the Roman Empire. Some 17 centuries later Christians in the US still think of persecution as something that largely doesn't and can't happen here, but happens out on "the mission field". It may or may not happen in my lifetime (I'm a few years older than you, jcg), but I think Christians here in the US are going to learn differently (as to persecution) and realize that the US is (and, truthfully, has always been) a "mission field". I don't think many promise boxes or scripture memory courses include 2 Timothy 3:12, Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

pat34lee wrote:This is not against anyone who believes in the pre-trib rapture and is not to be taken personally. I see it as a deception of God's people.

Two things bother me about the pre-trib rapture. The first is that it was unknown before the 1830's. The second is the me-first attitude it shows, like the "God wants to make you rich" teaching that people pay to hear. Most people probably never think about it this way, but are we special? Many prophets were killed, and the apostles were mostly killed, along with many in the early church, through history and even today in much of the world.

Noah had to spend 100 years building an ark before he got to board it. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo went into the furnace before the fourth man appeared. Daniel went to the lions knowing they could kill him. Joseph was sold as a slave and imprisoned before becoming the second most powerful man in Egypt. Even as the exodus from Egypt began, Israel had to go through the first few plagues, just as the Egyptians did. Don't you think he can sustain us through a few bad years?

Pat,
Nothing personal but I think your explanation is a distortion, particularly your reference to the "me-first."
I would agree that the notion of the church being taken away prior to the tribulation was not a developed doctrine. But, we can examine many established doctrines and make the same argument. What we define as the trinity, for example, is a good bit different than how the early church understood the concept. Even the doctrine of grace was locked up and hidden for a millenia, but that certainly doesn't negate the soundness of the doctrine.

Being a dispensationalist, there is a lot of fragmentation of belief that falls under that label. I do not like being considered in the same breath with people like LaHaye and others who have sensationalized the notion of a rapture, and have misinterpreted verses such as Matthew 24-39-41. When it comes to eschatology I draw no lines in the sand. I think dispensational study is much better applied to understanding the divisions in the Bible, regarding peoples and places, and specificially what applies to us TODAY.

Shallow, self-focused folk can probably be found among Pre-Mil--Pre-Tribbers. The bumpersticker, "Warning: In Case of Rapture This Car Will Be Unmanned" has always grated on me. But I'm sure there are shallow, self-focused folk among Post-Mil and A-Mil folk as well ... you know ... the normal range of human beings.

I'm Pan-Trib, personally. I know it all pans out in the end. The hard part in all this eschatology stuff - as in any aspect of life - is just remembering to be serving God the way you should be.

Really good stuff above. I appreciate the clarification that there is no such thing as "the" great tribulation. The persecution of Christians the hand of the antichrist and his followers is great tribulation. Also, the punishment of those who missed the rapture is great tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 1:6 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you."

I notice a lot of Post Trib Pre Wrath folks put the rapture in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, but I believe the 70th week ends with the rapture. The wrath of God should not be included in the 70th week, because at the rapture it is over. I don't see anyone getting saved during the wrath of God. Nowhere in Scripture are the 144,000 called evangelists and nowhere in Scripture are they seen preaching. The during the wrath of God the Scripture repeatedly says that men "did not repent".

I need help finding the latest and greatest pre-trib theory explanation. I'm looking for a web site that explains the order of events (seals, trumpets, bowls, 144,000, etc.) in the book of Revelation. The only web sites I've found only give 10 reasons why the rapture can't happen after the great tribulation. Of course these are bogus reason, mainly because they confuse the wrath of God with the Tribulation of the saints. It seems that the pre-trib theory has changed quite a bit over the last 15 years.

Thanks for your help.

klei, one of the possibilities tantalized by the "Late Great" books of the 1970s was the interpretation of "this generation shall not pass away" in Matthew 24 as referring to the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948, along with the "definition" od a "Biblical generation" being 40 years. 1988 having been passed some 25 years ago, some shift in emphasis was pretty much necessary.

I seriously wonder how much value there is in diving into the details of eschatology beyond what is necessary to know to be personally ready for Jesus to return in 5 minutes and to know to serve with the vision that such service could be needed for another 5 centuries.

The rapture, used to be called the 'secret rapture' - because they said people would just disappear and it would be unexpected and silent.
Then many inquirers found out that every Biblical reference to the deliverance of the saints involves, a lot of signs, sights, loud noises, earthquakes, brightness etc. So the secret part of the rapture had to be dismissed.
Later many understood that these loud happenings are in conjunction with the end of the world and the return of Christ - all one event.
So many who once believed in the rapture, no longer do.

In regards to escaping the trouble and persecution, there is none, but in the very end before Christ returns, a mark is issued by a world power Revelation 14. (as mentioned by kangaroo boy) and the warnings of God are not to His people that they might experience tribulation, but to those who receive "the mark of the beast" who will experience the wrath of God on a scale never before witnessed.
So who is in danger then the faithful whom God protects or those who receive the mark?

Watch God stand up for His people. Daniel 12:1.

I believe the rapture happens about a year into the tribulation because the bible tells us the anti-Christ will be revealed first.2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3.However I don't think we are close to the rapture because more prophecies need to be fulfilled first.It kinda bothers me to hear preachers say Jesus is coming soon when I'm thinking about a jewish temple that needs to be built first,Ezekiel 38,a One world government the anti-Christ and false prophet can take over to turn it into the mark of the beast system,etc.