RickD wrote:OK Danny, fine. You are using a Catholic article to state that America is Christian. The Catholic point of view is that Catholicism is Christian. I don't agree with that. While I do think Catholicism is "nominally" Christian. I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm. Many of my wife's family has come out of Catholic bondage and into a relationship with Christ. So, a Catholic article doesn't prove anything to me. Danny do you actually believe that over 50 % of Americans are born-again believers? Seriously, think about that. If not, then your argument fails.
Rick, this has nothing to do with Catholicism/Protestantism/salvation, and you're crudely turning this discussion upside down.
The burden of proof is on YOU as you claim that not all the Christians in America are "real" Christians; and you STILL have given me nothing to back up your assertion.
Over to you once again...
Last edited by DannyM on Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RickD wrote:I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm.
How do you know that?
Every Catholic church that I or my family has been at, doesn't preach the Biblical Gospel. The British Catholic Church may be Completely different. I don't know. In America, Catholicism is a different gospel. I was raised in Massachusetts, and the majority of people are Catholic, so I am very familiar with catholicism.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm.
How do you know that?
Every Catholic church that I or my family has been at, doesn't preach the Biblical Gospel. The British Catholic Church may be Completely different. I don't know. In America, Catholicism is a different gospel. I was raised in Massachusetts, and the majority of people are Catholic, so I am very familiar with catholicism.
But that wasn't my question to you. You said that it is certainly not the norm to be saved in the Catholic church and I am asking you how you can be so certain, how do you know that? (and I am an American).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
RickD wrote:Danny, that article talks about how our country was founded. I don't disagree, and have said that America was founded on a lot of Biblical principles. If that is why you are calling America a Christian nation, then, my point is that we as a nation(people and government) have gotten too far away from those principles.
Rick, then go and read my first link, which claims 76% of Americans are Christian. Then please explain to me how you know that not all of this 76% are "real" Christians, and then tell me HOW many of this 76% are not "real," and how you have measured this ...
RickD wrote:OK Danny, fine. You are using a Catholic article to state that America is Christian. The Catholic point of view is that Catholicism is Christian. I don't agree with that. While I do think Catholicism is "nominally" Christian. I'm sure it's possible to be saved in the Catholic church, but that certainly is not the norm. Many of my wife's family has come out of Catholic bondage and into a relationship with Christ. So, a Catholic article doesn't prove anything to me. Danny do you actually believe that over 50 % of Americans are born-again believers? Seriously, think about that. If not, then your argument fails.
Rick, this has nothing to do with Catholicism/Protestantism/salvation, and you're crudely turning this discussion upside down.
The burden of proof is on YOU as you claim that not all the Christians in America "real" Christians; and you STILL have given me nothing to back up your assertion.
Over to you, once again...
Danny, I have no burden of proof on myself. I have an opinion based on my life and the people I have been in contact with. Again, I am done debating this with you. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, and it doesn't really matter to me what you believe about this subject. If you really are interested in this subject, I'm sure there is plenty of info for you to see for yourself. Goodbye for now from "c"hristian America
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:Danny, that article talks about how our country was founded. I don't disagree, and have said that America was founded on a lot of Biblical principles. If that is why you are calling America a Christian nation, then, my point is that we as a nation(people and government) have gotten too far away from those principles.
Rick, then go and read my first link, which claims 76% of Americans are Christian. Then please explain to me how you know that not all of this 76% are "real" Christians, and then tell me HOW many of this 76% are not "real," and how you have measured this ...
Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:Danny, I have no burden of proof on myself. I have an opinion based on my life and the people I have been in contact with. Again, I am done debating this with you. I'm not trying to prove anything to you, and it doesn't really matter to me what you believe about this subject. If you really are interested in this subject, I'm sure there is plenty of info for you to see for yourself. Goodbye for now from "c"hristian America
Rick, I'm simply asking how you have come to the conclusion that (so many) Christian Americans are not real Christians. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong; I'm merely asking you to give me good grounds for making such a claim. Personal experience alone will not cut it.
RickD wrote:Danny, that article talks about how our country was founded. I don't disagree, and have said that America was founded on a lot of Biblical principles. If that is why you are calling America a Christian nation, then, my point is that we as a nation(people and government) have gotten too far away from those principles.
Rick, then go and read my first link, which claims 76% of Americans are Christian. Then please explain to me how you know that not all of this 76% are "real" Christians, and then tell me HOW many of this 76% are not "real," and how you have measured this ...
Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
Rick, I'm following the evidence. I've searched this today pretty thoroughly. The lowest figure I found (and believe me I searched!) was 67%- the highest, 81%. So I settled (somewhat) fairly on a middle figure. Now, if you are going to make the claim that (however many- you're very cagey about putting a figure on it) of these Christians are not "born again" then the burden of proof is firmly and snugly on YOU, my friend. It's down to you to show me how many of these CHRISTIANS don't fit your criteria. You're making claims and providing NOTHING to substantiate them!
RickD wrote:Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
Oy vey! Here we go again. How do you know they're not?
Exactly. If we're told that (say) 76% of Americans are Christian, then who are we to make claims about a sizable chunk of these Christians not being "real" Christians? I'm sure there are many Christians in the world who are habitual Christians only and don't think about their faith, but how on earth do we measure how many of this 76% are not "really" Christian?
RickD wrote:Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
Oy vey! Here we go again. How do you know they're not?
Exactly. If we're told that (say) 76% of Americans are Christian, then who are we to make claims about a sizable chunk of these Christians not being "real" Christians? I'm sure there are many Christians in the world who are habitual Christians only and don't think about their faith, but how on earth do we measure how many of this 76% are not "really" Christian?
Danny, The people measuring are the poll takers. Why don't you find out their burden of proof. Search those polls, and first find out each poll's definition of Christian. Then If you want to discuss this further, I'm willing. I'm saying that I believe that 76% of Americans are not born-again Christians. Ultimately, only God can judge If that is the case. I'm just judging by my experiences, and the fruit of the people I have met. I'm not the one measuring percentages "your" polls are. I don't know a percentage, and would never attempt to give one. I'm sorry that my reasons for my opinion aren't good enough for you, but I don't have to prove my opinions or beliefs to anybody. It is my personal opinion, that's all. If you want to believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians, then I won't stop you from believing that. I think the key to your polls is the definition of "Christian". If you find out what Christian means in the poll, then we may have an answer for you.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
Oy vey! Here we go again. How do you know they're not?
Exactly. If we're told that (say) 76% of Americans are Christian, then who are we to make claims about a sizable chunk of these Christians not being "real" Christians? I'm sure there are many Christians in the world who are habitual Christians only and don't think about their faith, but how on earth do we measure how many of this 76% are not "really" Christian?
Danny, search those polls, and first find out each poll's definition of Christian. Then If you want to discuss this further, I'm willing. I'm saying that I believe that 76% of Americans are not born-again Christians. Ultimately, only God can judge If that is the case. I'm just judging by my experiences, and the fruit of the people I have met. I'm not the one measuring percentages "your" polls are. I don't know a percentage, and would never attempt to give one. I'm sorry that my reasons for my opinion aren't good enough for you, but I don't have to prove my opinions or beliefs to anybody. It is my personal opinion, that's all. If you want to believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians, then I won't stop you from believing that. I think the key to your polls is the definition of "Christian". If you find out what Christian means in the poll, then we may have an answer for you.
Rick, you're just spitting in the wind now. A Christian is a Christian unless stated otherwise. You're assuming a split in the Christian-"ness" of those polled, and that is purely your own assumption based on nothing which should disrupt the poll. I'm positive that not every one of the 76% are true-faith Christians, but the poll remains untouched by any attempts to throw a spanner in the works with absurd suggestions that so many of them cannot be "real" and "born again" Christians. Look, polls are not bullet proof and some polls are less authoritative than others. I've picked out the middle-ranging source and provided you with it. America is, by my reckoning, a Christian nation. If you wish to claim otherwise, then it is on you to show me how you can see into the heart of 76% of America and then show me how many are not "real" Christians. If a man tells me he's a Christian, who am I to call him on his Christian "credentials" if he has given me no reason to?
RickD wrote:Danny, do you seriously believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians? Seriously?
Oy vey! Here we go again. How do you know they're not?
Exactly. If we're told that (say) 76% of Americans are Christian, then who are we to make claims about a sizable chunk of these Christians not being "real" Christians? I'm sure there are many Christians in the world who are habitual Christians only and don't think about their faith, but how on earth do we measure how many of this 76% are not "really" Christian?
Danny, search those polls, and first find out each poll's definition of Christian. Then If you want to discuss this further, I'm willing. I'm saying that I believe that 76% of Americans are not born-again Christians. Ultimately, only God can judge If that is the case. I'm just judging by my experiences, and the fruit of the people I have met. I'm not the one measuring percentages "your" polls are. I don't know a percentage, and would never attempt to give one. I'm sorry that my reasons for my opinion aren't good enough for you, but I don't have to prove my opinions or beliefs to anybody. It is my personal opinion, that's all. If you want to believe that 76% of Americans are born-again Christians, then I won't stop you from believing that. I think the key to your polls is the definition of "Christian". If you find out what Christian means in the poll, then we may have an answer for you.
Rick, you're just spitting in the wind now. A Christian is a Christian unless stated otherwise. You're assuming a split in the Christian-"ness" of those polled, and that is purely your own assumption based on nothing which should disrupt the poll. I'm positive that not every one of the 76% are true-faith Christians, but the poll remains untouched by any attempts to throw a spanner in the works with absurd suggestions that so many of them cannot be "real" and "born again" Christians. Look, polls are not bullet proof and some polls are less authoritative than others. I've picked out the middle-ranging source and provided you with it. America is, by my reckoning, a Christian nation. If you wish to claim otherwise, then it is on you to show me how you can see into the heart of 76% of America and then show me how many are not "real" Christians. If a man tells me he's a Christian, who am I to call him on his Christian "credentials" if he has given me no reason to?
Danny, we have come all the way back around again to the definition of Christian. I think America is Christian by name and not by what the Bible says a Christian is. By your "reckoning", America is a Christian nation. By mine it's not. It's my opinion. Not the gospel truth. My opinion only. If you disagree with my opinion, then disagree. We are going in circles. I gave my opinion. Are you a born-again believer in Christ? Saved by grace alone? Or are you just a nominal christian?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
RickD wrote:Danny, we have come all the way back around again to the definition of Christian. I think America is Christian by name and not by what the Bible says a Christian is. By your "reckoning", America is a Christian nation. By mine it's not. It's my opinion. Not the gospel truth. My opinion only. If you disagree with my opinion, then disagree. We are going in circles. I gave my opinion. Are you a born-again believer in Christ? Saved by grace alone? Or are you just a nominal christian?
Rick, yeah we'll just call it a day, as we're getting nowhere
Every Christian is a believer in Christ unless you can show otherwise. I'm sure you've met non-Christian Christians, Rick, and I respect your opinion. I was just looking for something a little wider than your own experiences.
RickD wrote:Danny, we have come all the way back around again to the definition of Christian. I think America is Christian by name and not by what the Bible says a Christian is. By your "reckoning", America is a Christian nation. By mine it's not. It's my opinion. Not the gospel truth. My opinion only. If you disagree with my opinion, then disagree. We are going in circles. I gave my opinion. Are you a born-again believer in Christ? Saved by grace alone? Or are you just a nominal christian?
Rick, yeah we'll just call it a day, as we're getting nowhere
Every Christian is a believer in Christ unless you can show otherwise. I'm sure you've met non-Christian Christians, Rick, and I respect your opinion. I was just looking for something a little wider than your own experiences.
Sorry to disappoint you Danny. Like I stated before, my wife was a "Christian" before God showed her his way to Him through Christ. I think that it is of eternal importance that we don't assume because someone claims to be a Christian, that he/she is really eternally secure in the Lord.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
