Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
DannyM wrote:Any attempt at a theory of everything must in the end turn out to be a theory of nothing. Stephen Hawking is very good, but he's also very mischievous & likes the limelight...The wee rascal...
I really have nothing against the guy... I even plan to buy his book.. But I believe he, like many, seeks the praises of men. The problem with that is it is a temporary praise.. Once he dies and all that praise dies along with with, how will he be received by God? Kind of like a suicide bomber.. Hey everybody, there is no God, watch me blow up my life and my soul for you in a beautiful firework display.. Cool huh?
Many don't even think about such things, they think we die and then we are dead. So who cares... But I often wonder what happens how are lives will be judged by our actions... If anything, do not take any chances on it. It's not worth it even if people think it's cool...
We could die at any point.. And then find out our actions were actually wrong and now we have to spend eternity away from God (by our own wanting) in hell. Don't do it... Don't take chances with your life or on a hunch. It's not worth it.. This is just a temporary life. Be wise...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
DannyM wrote:Any attempt at a theory of everything must in the end turn out to be a theory of nothing. Stephen Hawking is very good, but he's also very mischievous & likes the limelight...The wee rascal...
I really have nothing against the guy... I even plan to buy his book.. But I believe he, like many, seeks the praises of men. The problem with that is it is a temporary praise.. Once he dies and all that praise dies along with with, how will he be received by God? Kind of like a suicide bomber.. Hey everybody, there is no God, watch me blow up my life and my soul for you in a beautiful firework display.. Cool huh?
Many don't even think about such things, they think we die and then we are dead. So who cares... But I often wonder what happens how are lives will be judged by our actions... If anything, do not take any chances on it. It's not worth it even if people think it's cool...
It's possible to view Hawking as an a theist, an atheist, or an agnostic based on his past comments. He's a cheeky sausage who likes to cause a stir with certain comments.
Gman wrote:We could die at any point.. And then find out our actions were actually wrong and now we have to spend eternity away from God (by our own wanting) in hell. Don't do it... Don't take chances with your life or on a hunch. It's not worth it.. This is just a temporary life. Be wise...
"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."
"The wager builds on the theme of other Pensées where Pascal systematically dismantles the notion that we can trust reason."
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose."
"The wager builds on the theme of other Pensées where Pascal systematically dismantles the notion that we can trust reason."
I see only two potential problems with the Wager: 1) Which god to choose, and 2) one's heart needs to be convinced if one is to choose Christ. We can deal with [1] by rationalising our way quite easily to Christianity by dismissing all other religions as logically incoherent. [2] is a problem. If one chooses Pascal's Wager, surely one must then look to convince oneself of the truth claims of Christianity... Would God really accept somebody on the basis of the Wager? Hey, He might, but I wouldn't risk it...
DannyM wrote:Would God really accept somebody on the basis of the Wager? Hey, He might, but I wouldn't risk it...
Oh yes... That would probably be the ultimate question. But it is not definite. Like you I wouldn't take any chances on it.. Some perhaps would claim ignorance also. A gamble with your very soul.
Not worth it in my opinion... Even if it get's the temporary praise of men.. Before long, Stephen Hawking's books will go where all the other books or ideas go. On a dusty old shelf...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
DannyM wrote:Would God really accept somebody on the basis of the Wager? Hey, He might, but I wouldn't risk it...
Oh yes... That would probably be the ultimate question. But it is not definite. Like you I wouldn't take any chances on it.. Some perhaps would claim ignorance also. A gamble with your very soul.
No worth it in my opinion... Even if it get's the temporary praise of men.. Before long, Stephen Hawking's books will go where all the other books or ideas go. On a dusty old shelf...
I agree with you. But, perhaps God would look favourably on anybody who actually takes the time to consider his future in such a manner. I don't like to speculate too much about who God will and will not save ...Alas, the honest seeker shall find, and shall know in his heart.
DannyM wrote:I agree with you. But, perhaps God would look favourably on anybody who actually takes the time to consider his future in such a manner. I don't like to speculate too much about who God will and will not save ...Alas, the honest seeker shall find, and shall know in his heart.
Yes... Perhaps.. In the end we can really only focus on ourselves..
But again, once you have heard it, and rejected Him... Well... There is little God can do I believe. We permanently separate ourselves from Him. He can't stop that.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo
We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
DannyM wrote:I agree with you. But, perhaps God would look favourably on anybody who actually takes the time to consider his future in such a manner. I don't like to speculate too much about who God will and will not save ...Alas, the honest seeker shall find, and shall know in his heart.
Yes... Perhaps.. In the end we can really only focus on ourselves..
But again, once you have heard it, and rejected Him... Well... There is little God can do I believe. We permanently separate ourselves from Him. He can't stop that.
I've often wondered about this question too. I think it is plausible to say that those who have never heard of Jesus will be saved; they were never given the chance to choose. The final justice lies with God. But, what if someone has never heard of Jesus but worships another "god"? Again this is speculation, as we can never truly know. God will decide what is just.
DannyM wrote: I think it is plausible to say that those who have never heard of Jesus will be saved; they were never given the chance to choose. The final justice lies with God. But, what if someone has never heard of Jesus but worships another "god"? Again this is speculation, as we can never truly know. God will decide what is just.
The answer to this is in your Bible. Here are some pointers on where to find it:
-We are saved by faith now as in OT days. See Hebrews, chapter 11.
-No one who worships another god will be saved, ever. God makes himself known to those who seek him. See Ro 8:28-30
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
DannyM wrote: I think it is plausible to say that those who have never heard of Jesus will be saved; they were never given the chance to choose. The final justice lies with God. But, what if someone has never heard of Jesus but worships another "god"? Again this is speculation, as we can never truly know. God will decide what is just.
The answer to this is in your Bible. Here are some pointers on where to find it:
-We are saved by faith now as in OT days. See Hebrews, chapter 11.
-No one who worships another god will be saved, ever. God makes himself known to those who seek him. See Ro 8:28-30
FL
I'm sorry that I missed this, FL. I was merely speculating about those who have not heard Of Jesus.* I make you 100% correct with regards those who have chosen and made the wrong choice; but regardless of a lack of knowledge of Jesus?
*How many people in this day and age have not heard of Jesus?
DannyM wrote: I think it is plausible to say that those who have never heard of Jesus will be saved; they were never given the chance to choose. The final justice lies with God. But, what if someone has never heard of Jesus but worships another "god"? Again this is speculation, as we can never truly know. God will decide what is just.
The answer to this is in your Bible. Here are some pointers on where to find it:
-We are saved by faith now as in OT days. See Hebrews, chapter 11.
-No one who worships another god will be saved, ever. God makes himself known to those who seek him. See Ro 8:28-30
FL
I'm sorry that I missed this, FL. I was merely speculating about those who have not heard Of Jesus.* I make you 100% correct with regards those who have chosen and made the wrong choice; but regardless of a lack of knowledge of Jesus?
*How many people in this day and age have not heard of Jesus?
I would suspect many. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently, it is called invincible ignorance where, through no fault of their own, some who did not get the opportunity to hear the Gospel but still desire to know God and live godly lives may still be able to partake of the divine grace.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
DannyM wrote:How many people in this day and age have not heard of Jesus?
I would suspect many. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently, it is called invincible ignorance where, through no fault of their own, some who did not get the opportunity to hear the Gospel but still desire to know God and live godly lives may still be able to partake of the divine grace.
Thanks Byblos. I'll do an internal search and look for that thread.
DannyM wrote:How many people in this day and age have not heard of Jesus?
Byblos wrote:I would suspect many. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently, it is called invincible ignorance where, through no fault of their own, some who did not get the opportunity to hear the Gospel but still desire to know God and live godly lives may still be able to partake of the divine grace.
Yes, many. Many children going through the secular school system in this jurisdiction (Quebec) have no clue who Jesus is. Actually, they have a perverted view of him as a nice baby born in difficult circumstances to poor parents. When Easter rolls around, the nice baby has turned into a cute bunny. But...something tells me you are not speaking of Western kids in rich countries born to nominally Christian parents. I think you may be speaking of some lost tribe in New Guinea or some such place.
In any event, my original answer still stands as it is based on the Bible,
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
-We are saved by faith now as in OT days. See Hebrews, chapter 11.
-No one who worships another god will be saved, ever. God makes himself known to those who seek him. See Ro 8:28-30
FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom
+ + +
If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
Very poetic!! Unfortunately, I suspect it's not true.
Maybe God has nothing to do with the Universe and Matter. Maybe that concept is just our poetic license - something we just tossed together because it sounded good to somebody at sometime - and now we're stuck with it as "Truth"?
Maybe God has always existed and so has the universe ....in one form or another? Mr. Hawking? Sir....?
Maybe God is constant and unchanging, certainly the universe is not, but it's always there, with its constant nagging... in one form or another?
Maybe God is forever and so is the Universe. Co-existing forever. Would it hurt your feelings if God told you someday in Heaven: "Hey Suzie... Matter really wasn't My idea! That stuff has always been out there. It does have a certain charm though, doesn't it?"
I mean like..... there are no atoms in Heaven, right? So how charming could Matter be?
If I might be allowed to paraphrase Jesus: "Don't get stuck in Time and Energy and Matter with all its shenanigans. Be spirit like your Father is!!"
Both gravity and self-preservation are "shenanigans" of matter. Jesus ignored gravity and self-preservation and all those cool physical principles we've invented for ourselves, He walked on water, He healed the sick with a word or touch, He raised the dead - including Himself!!
I recall Him saying something like: "Listen up people!! If you had faith only as big as a mustard seed, YOU!... yeah I'm talkin' to YOU over there... you could say to that mountain 'MOVE!' and it would move for you."
Uh huh. Yeah right. Or was He right? Maybe it was NOT a figure of speech? When is the last time you tried walking on water because you knew you could?
So... maybe God is not this big ol' "creator", but simply a Father... Abba.... "Dad".... "Pop" - that's how Jesus addressed God. I don't think Jesus ever called God "Creator", so why do we?
Oh.... yeah... it's in Genesis - the Old Testament. And so we give equal weight to Jesus and Genesis?
I had to re-read your post several times to actually understand what your overall point was, I'm afraid. I don't mean to insult you or anything, I would just recommend on sticking to one set of thoughts next time, instead of jumping from point to point to point. It didn't help that it felt a little bit off-topic for the thread as well.
In response to what you posted: You posted a lot of "Maybes" but you missed one: Maybe God is eternal, our universe is not, and He created it for His own purpose. That would be my position.
As far as your last comment goes about Genesis and Jesus, I would suggest that you re-read what Christ had to say in the New Testament. Regardless of what you believe about the Creation account in Genesis, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah spoken of in the Old Testament. It is a little ignorant of the history and theology of Christianity to detach Genesis from Jesus.
