Obiwan wrote:Thank you again for your post, The Isaiah passages are the pre -mortal Jesus [Yahweh] who is stating from the structure of the Hebrew I am told is like a exclusivity of a sweetheart ,not denying the existence of others but HE is the ONLY one [GOD] for them. I agree there was none like Yahweh. He knew no ther GOD for the Israelites.
In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Obiwan, did you not realize that the oldest Book of Isaiah was discovered within the Dead Sea finds? The Isaiah scrolls date around 325-200 BCE or BC. That is about 600 years before the Nicene Creed ever came about. In fact, the English Translation of Isaiah currently used in modern translations use the Dead Sea Isaiah scroll. Since this is so, therefore, you will read from that ancient Hebrew text and grammar that it cements the usage of Trinitarian language throughout it. This again predates Nicene Creed.
So if the language used in Isaiah predates your claims about the Nicene Creed and if Isaiah has definitive references about the God speaking of himself in third person grammar, word analogies, and identifies his oneness as being in three distinct presences — would you really consider forsaking Mormonism and consider that the orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity is true?
I do not perceive you to be real honest here and unwilling to use the same standard of critique you use against Orthodox Christianity to examine Mormonism. Is this correct?
If you are sincere let us briefly look at how God identifies his presences used in the Book of Isaiah in case you are really seeking to learn. Therefore let's begin and use our own intellect here:
Notice the language used and the use of Arm as used in Isaiah as well as note who is speaking in Isa 52:10: “
The LORD has made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.” NKJV
Isa 53:1, “Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” NKJV
God describes that his own arm — holy arm — right arm/hand brings salvation. Now look as Isaiah 40:10, 11, 12, 13:
"Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young.
“12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? 13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has taught Him?”
Who is called the Good Shepherd? Who was involved in creation?
Isaiah 48:12, 13 answers and note God is speaking here:
"Hearken unto Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Yea, My hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spread out the heavens; when I call unto them, they stand up together." JPS
Notice the usage of three distinct I's —
I am… I am… I am… and then note that the Lord identifies that his hand and arm were involved in creation. Hebrews 1:2-3 - Ephesians 3:9 — Colossians 1:16-17 line up with this as well as identifies who this right hand is.
Now note that two hands are mentioned and also Note how Isaiah 40: 13 identifies the Spirit of Yahweh.
Isaiah 34:16 identifies two distinct features - mouth and Spirit,
"Search from the book of the LORD, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them.”
Note that Jesus is called the Word in John 1:1-2, 14
Also Ezekiel 11:5 tells us that God's Holy Spirit speaks denoting person and also is Yahweh: “
Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the LORD: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind.”
Keep these things in mind when reading Isaiah when God is speaking and how he uses third person speech in reference to himself as well as descriptions used such as in Isaiah 63:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14:
"And He saith, Only My people they are , Sons--they lie not, and He is to them for a saviour. 9 In all their distress He is no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old.
“10 And they have rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, And He turneth to them for an enemy, He Himself hath fought against them. 11 And He remembereth the days of old, Moses--his people. Where is He who is bringing them up from the sea, The shepherd of his flock? Where is He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?
“12 Leading by the right hand of Moses, the arm of His glory, Cleaving waters from before them, To make to Himself a name age-during. 13 Leading them through the depths, As a horse in a plain they stumble not. 14 As a beast into a valley goeth down, The Spirit of Jehovah causeth him to rest, So hast Thou led Thy people, To make to Thyself a glorious name." YLT
Note verse 9 and the use of the word presence is the Hebrew word
pāniym which is a masculine plural noun meaning a
faces or presences — not singular but plural!
Notice the word that YLT uses the translated word
messenger. This is the Hebrew word for
Malak which means
word bearer, task doer, messenger. This is not an angelic being as it is solely and directly connected to the word pāniym - presences and this word connected directly in context to Yahweh who is speaking. This reveals that God reveals his presences symbolized
as hand — arm — right hand - mouth — etc each denoting differing attributes as well.
There are constantly three presences of Yahweh identified throughout the OT and they are the same one person in three distinct presences or faces. Note the distinct attributes of the Spirit mentioned as well. That is why Yahweh said to Moses, “...
tell them , I am, I am, I am sent you” in Exodus.
For God to be in a form of oneness as a tree, image, or any single item is something God says he is not — none like him — no other gods… etc… as Mormonism makes him out to be. If no other gods exist — then there are
no lesser gods either.
If there are and can be no other godseven lesser ones — then why do Mormons seek godhood?
What reason was humanity expelled from the Garden of Eden?
Now read Isaiah below - Does Mormonism violate any part of this in its doctrine? Remember our translations of Isaiah predate your argument...
Isa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
Isa 40:19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains.
Isa 40:20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter.
Isa 40:21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Isa 40:23 He brings the princes to nothing; He makes the judges of the earth useless.
Isa 40:24 Scarcely shall they be planted, Scarcely shall they be sown, Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth, When He will also blow on them, And they will wither, And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.
Isa 40:25 "To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, And see who has created these things, Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of His power; Not one is missing.
Side Note — Jesus is identified with might (right hand) and Holy Spirit as giving Power…
If this is too in depth - then I can go slower and pick out even more clearer passage from Isaiah for you.
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???. Please, please tell me where he obtained his theological training [School, what were his fields of study ect..., year he graduated]. And where did he obtain authority to promote true LDS doctrine, teaching,Thought, practice,walk that is binding for all LDS members ?. GMan he is the head of a LDS book publishing Company where he writes books and distributes other LDS individuals books in LDS Bookstore's. So your 2nd paragraph is null and void due to Duane Crowther not having any authority to speak on true LDS Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Walk.
