Evidence for God from Science

Smiley, PLEASE edit your post before you get in trouble. That is inappropriate language for a Christian and for a Christian forum.

truthman wrote:

Byblos wrote: What does it mean if a believer does not display or stops displaying God's work in him?

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If a person never displayed God's work in him, then he was not a true believer. If the person once displayed God's work in him but has stopped, God will discipline (purge or clean) him over time. It is over time because God is patient and is always looking at the eternal picture.

The passage you quoted says absolutely nothing about "belief" or "faith".

truthman wrote:Smiley, PLEASE edit your post before you get in trouble. That is inappropriate language for a Christian and for a Christian forum.

That wasn't directed at anyone, just a general statement . . .

Anyway, you aren't really the one to talk considering you directly call other people "fools" on other threads.

truthman wrote:If a person never displayed God's work in him, then he was not a true believer.

But at the time he truly believed he was a true believer, then he stopped believing. What does that say about his absolute assurance of salvation?

truthman wrote:If the person once displayed God's work in him but has stopped, God will discipline (purge or clean) him over time. It is over time because God is patient and is always looking at the eternal picture.

What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?

I'm surprised the swear word wasn't filtered. Please try not to use swear words, as slang, on the board ("hell" obviously is a subject here and not just a swear word).

Byblos wrote: What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?

We can't know. Although Jesus did say that whoever denies Him, He'll deny to the Father. Assurance of salvation seemed to be directed at those who persevere, as Paul so often talked about. But overall it's a mystery, and only God can know who is saved in the end.

cslewislover wrote:

Byblos wrote: What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?

We can't know. Although Jesus did say that whoever denies Him, He'll deny to the Father. Assurance of salvation seemed to be directed at those who persevere, as Paul so often talked about. But overall it's a mystery, and only God can know who is saved in the end.

I agree.

My line of thinking (following Jac's) was more directed at those who believe in absolute assurance and yet deny the free grace interpretation (Jac's).

Byblos wrote: But at the time he truly believed he was a true believer, then he stopped believing. What does that say about his absolute assurance of salvation?

Jesus also gave us the parable of the sower and the seed. Some seed fell on stoney ground, sprang up, but never bore fruit. The seed is the Word of God. The person received the word and first appeared to believe (sprung up), but there was no true belief and no real fruit was born.
Many people are deceived into believing that they are saved and born again. There are many people preaching and teaching an incorrect way of salvation, and of course there are still people who are given the true way of salvation and say they believe but do not.

Matthew 7:16-18 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?

Then that is evidence that he never truly believed, but was only a hypocrite.

truthman wrote:

Byblos wrote: But at the time he truly believed he was a true believer, then he stopped believing. What does that say about his absolute assurance of salvation?

Jesus also gave us the parable of the sower and the seed. Some seed fell on stoney ground, sprang up, but never bore fruit. The seed is the Word of God. The person received the word and first appeared to believe (sprung up), but there was no true belief and no real fruit was born.
Many people are deceived into believing that they are saved and born again. There are many people preaching and teaching an incorrect way of salvation, and of course there are still people who are given the true way of salvation and say they believe but do not.

Matthew 7:16-18 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?

Then that is evidence that he never truly believed, but was only a hypocrite.

Truthman,

What does that say about absolute assurance of salvation (Once Saved Always Saved)?

It is consistent with once "saved always saved."
In the parable of the sower and the seed, only when the seed (the word of God) bore fruit was the person saved.

Jesus also gave us the parable of the sower and the seed. Some seed fell on stoney ground, sprang up, but never bore fruit. The seed is the Word of God. The person received the word and first appeared to believe (sprung up), but there was no true belief and no real fruit was born.
Many people are deceived into believing that they are saved and born again. There are many people preaching and teaching an incorrect way of salvation, and of course there are still people who are given the true way of salvation and say they believe but do not.

I agree

What if this believer never again displays any sign of once believing? In fact, he goes on to become a militant atheist and a hardened criminal. Is he still saved?



Then that is evidence that he never truly believed, but was only a hypocrite.

I don't necessarily agree. If someone is a Christian all his life, and then has something awful happen that causes him to be angry with God, and shows his anger by acting like a militant athiest, and hardened criminal, he still may be saved. We just don't know for sure.

If the "Once saved always saved" doctrine applies, then what do we do with Hebrews 6:4-6 ?

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

sinnerbybirth wrote:If the "Once saved always saved" doctrine applies, then what do we do with Hebrews 6:4-6 ?

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The passage states that it is impossible for born again believers who fall away to go back to repentance, because it would mean that Christ's death was not sufficient to pay for all sin, which would put Him to an open shame.
The words "fall away" are translated from παραπιπτω (parapipto), which means "to fall beside a person or thing". The Scriptures often liken the Christian life to running a race (Hebrews 12:2-3, etc.). The race begins when a person trusts Christ as Saviour and the goal is to be come like Christ ("looking unto Jesus..."). When running the race, if a person falls away, that does not mean that he falls all the way back to before the starting line, but rather that he "falls aside" (parapipto) or "falls away" from the track. We also call it "backsliding".

To sum it up, the passage says that it is impossible for a child of God to lose his salvation.

truthman wrote:

sinnerbybirth wrote:If the "Once saved always saved" doctrine applies, then what do we do with Hebrews 6:4-6 ?

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The passage states that it is impossible for born again believers who fall away to go back to repentance, because it would mean that Christ's death was not sufficient to pay for all sin, which would put Him to an open shame.
The words "fall away" are translated from παραπιπτω (parapipto), which means "to fall beside a person or thing". The Scriptures often liken the Christian life to running a race (Hebrews 12:2-3, etc.). The race begins when a person trusts Christ as Saviour and the goal is to be come like Christ ("looking unto Jesus..."). When running the race, if a person falls away, that does not mean that he falls all the way back to before the starting line, but rather that he "falls aside" (parapipto) or "falls away" from the track. We also call it "backsliding".

To sum it up, the passage says that it is impossible for a child of God to lose his salvation.

There are, of course, scholars who totally disagree with you, Truthman. From the plain reading, to me it says that if you crucify Christ again yourself, well, how much stronger can the author put it? Crucifying Christ = backsliding? I'm not saying I'm the be all-end all of this passage, but I do know that from the commentaries I have read that your explanation is not the most common one. Well, I've never actually seen this explanation . . . this does not at all seem like backsliding to me, it's far more serious.

Byblos wrote:

truthman wrote:I'm sorry, but I don't understand. If God doesn't do what He says He will do?
I believe God does what He says.

What does it mean if a believer does not display or stops displaying God's work in him?

Then they are either riding somewhere on the Holy Ghost roller coaster, or still standing in line to get on, our just not convinced Christ is whom they need. Only the Lord knows…

Or they are in the midst changing the car they are on into a new one...

A better question - can we really limit God?

Our own weak faith can and does waver - but can we really limit what God wants to accomplish or even stop it?

1 Sa 16:7, "But the LORD said to Samuel, "... For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." NKJV

It takes faith to entrust another in God's care...

1 Co 4:5 and Deuteronomy 30:6

Answer would be - only God's knows, So, let's look to ourselves wheather we be in the faith rather than our neighbors and fellow passengers...

Then we might be able to help them on their way back to the fold. We are, after all, called to be the hands and feet of the Lord…

Mat 18:12, 13, 14, 15, "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother..." NKJV

1 Peter 2:25
-
-
-

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,...6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1. It is referring to born again children of God (enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, etc.). - agreed
2. It is possible for them to fall away ("if they shall fall away") - agreed
3. Parapipto means to "fall aside". -hopefully agreed.
4. No where does it say lose their salvation, lose eternal life, or become unborn as a child of God.
5. It says that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, or for them to go back to repentance, because in going back to repentance if it were possible they would crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.
6. It does not say that it is actually possible for anyone to crucify the Son of God afresh, but rather that it is impossible.
7. That is because the body of Jesus Christ was sacrificed "once for all".

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.