Children of God are Born Again with Eternal Life

[truthman]

God's word said that a person should examine himself, not me. I only repeated it.
Beyond that, I cannot answer. Search the Scriptures whether they have anything more to say about it and believe what they say.
God bless

[Byblos]

God's word said that a person should examine himself, not me. I only repeated it.

Yes, of course. For the sake of clarity, though, let us emphasize that very same scripture you quoted:

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Beyond that, I cannot answer. Search the Scriptures whether they have anything more to say about it and believe what they say.
God bless

Good advice. Thank you for the discourse and blessings to you too.

[B. W.]

God's word said that a person should examine himself, not me. I only repeated it.

Yes, of course. For the sake of clarity, though, let us emphasize that very same scripture you quoted:

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Beyond that, I cannot answer. Search the Scriptures whether they have anything more to say about it and believe what they say.
God bless

Good advice. Thank you for the discourse and blessings to you too.

I posted this on another thread and am posting it hear as it also applies because it points out something missing in these kinds of discussions...

One last thing we all seem to be missing as evidence - a real honest Love for God which develops within us that changes our very life... not a zeal for good legel works disguised as love - but something that only God knows, others may sense, but God knows.

In my opinion, many have become so anti-works oriented, and so hostile towards becoming his workmanship, that they should apply the same ideas into their marriage. Treat your spouse with that same anti-works zeal and see what happens.

I love my wife, I do things around the house for her, for her, because I like too. I like too because of my love for her. I may give her a surprise gift or a silly note taped her favorite bag of bagels in the fridge, etc,. This is a high form of human love that gives birth to agape's nurture, cherishing, fostering, edifying nature.

Why can't we love God in similar scope? Why are such acts considered wrong - legalism? When in fact, they are liberating, producing life. You can't fake this with legalism - it will crush a person but love welling up in the human heart for God does indeed produce good works, why, because of love...

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, might, and soul - and love thy neighbor as thyself - Jesus said somewhere - why are we so afraid to love God?

So to answer FL (his post is on the other thread) - we are constituted saints by God so soon we will manifest saintliness because He first Loved us...


So examine where your own faith is leading you? Is faith energized by love or legalism?

Is your own faith being energized by His love for you?

Next:

A very good presentation. I think we are "on the same page."
However, I think you have just explained a OSAS position, really.
So, what about the verses listed above and the fact of new birth as children of God with eternal life?
Would you say that you have been born of God and have eternal life?
If you do, can your eternal life end?

Not quite OSAS…

As I understand OSAS — it's based only on intellectual belief: no movement beyond just intellectual agreeing (believing) is needed to be saved always, so if a person falls away they remain saved no matter what. That is a simplified version of OSAS as I understand it to mean.

Truthman, I don't hear you saying that. You appear more akin to Charles Finney's true and false convert points he used in order to understand this matter. Which makes sense to me, others, no but after rolling it around in my brain for many a year — it makes sense, does no violation to God's character, love, and just nature.

God knows who are his, who will respond as well as how each will react to his own initiative to call before any of us were ever born. He is all knowing. His call provides the means for each person to accept or reject his call to return to him. He remains impartially fair to all as well as to himself in this despite his foreknowing the final outcome his call has on each of us. From this, he chose us before the foundation of the world to be his own and none can snatch us out of his hand.

We do have a choice to respond to his call. God can't help but foreknow the answer and the final result his call has on each of us. A person may think they believe may not really actually believe and they can fall away. That is someone falsely converted. Someone truly convert discovers that God first loved them and from that, a love for God beings to bloom which changes one's life out of darkness into light. That is someone truly converted. Someone unable to be snatched out of his molding shap'n hands.

Those 3 in the parable of the sower, in my opinion are those, who are falsely converted — only one truly was converted due to the call (word) and it changed his heart to love God and from this good fruit came in due seasons. The true covert hears and understands… Therefore true believing in Christ appears to suggest both hearing and understanding more than mere intellectual believing — agreeing which causes people to fall away.

Christ never knew those whom fell away despite great deeds done in his name or lack thereof of deeds. He knows who are his because they hear, understand, follow, transformed by his love; thru his Spirit within, who guards, keeps, chastises, instructs understanding, guides us into truth, transforms, opens our hearts, drives a nail thru ones willing ear lobe to be his…

Remember Jonah? All indications indict him of someone who fell away, as we debate, but did he? No — he came around and did the will of God, that God intended for him because the Lord foreknew the final result that his call would have on his life. No matter how far Jonah ran, Jonah would hear, come to understand, and be transformed by God's ever shaping-molding hands that Jonah could not effectively jump out of.

There is a lesson in that, if one but hear…
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[truthman]

B.W.

As I understand OSAS — it's based only on intellectual belief: no movement beyond just intellectual agreeing (believing) is needed to be saved always, so if a person falls away they remain saved no matter what. That is a simplified version of OSAS as I understand it to mean.

I might as well say that I am a Baptist. Baptists believe as a rule have always believed in eternal security (except for break away General Baptists and Free Will Baptists.) We do not generally use the term "once saved always saved" for eternal security, but we do recognize it is generally the same thing. Then, within the Baptists there is a significant percentage that are 5 point Calvinists with a somewhat different definition of eternal security also called perseverance of the saints in the 5 points. I believe the majority of Baptists are not Calvinists: I am not.
Of the many hundreds of preachers and Christians I have known in the US and Canada I have never encountered anyone who would admit to believing what you say about OSAS. On the other hand, I have encountered far too many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who espouse a position we call "easy believism" which may link up to your definition. Far too many in their zeal to get as many converts as possible have resorted to a brief presentation of the gospel followed by asking people to pray a prayer asking God to save them followed by telling the person they are saved because they asked God to save them. They may then tell the supposed convert that they are saved no matter what. Many of these supposed converts never truly understand the gospel, much less believe on the Lord with all their heart.

If you are interested in an in depth study on the doctrine of election, I wrote a thesis on the subject I would gladly share.

I totally agree with you about love being the heart of Christianity. Love is superior to law. What many are espousing today in rejecting legalism is licence. The motto of the last church I pastored was "Real Christianity is spelled LOVE".

That is also why I chose this signature...

[Byblos]

B.W.

As I understand OSAS — it's based only on intellectual belief: no movement beyond just intellectual agreeing (believing) is needed to be saved always, so if a person falls away they remain saved no matter what. That is a simplified version of OSAS as I understand it to mean.

I might as well say that I am a Baptist. Baptists believe as a rule have always believed in eternal security (except for break away General Baptists and Free Will Baptists.) We do not generally use the term "once saved always saved" for eternal security, but we do recognize it is generally the same thing. Then, within the Baptists there is a significant percentage that are 5 point Calvinists with a somewhat different definition of eternal security also called perseverance of the saints in the 5 points. I believe the majority of Baptists are not Calvinists: I am not.
Of the many hundreds of preachers and Christians I have known in the US and Canada I have never encountered anyone who would admit to believing what you say about OSAS. On the other hand, I have encountered far too many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who espouse a position we call "easy believism" which may link up to your definition. Far too many in their zeal to get as many converts as possible have resorted to a brief presentation of the gospel followed by asking people to pray a prayer asking God to save them followed by telling the person they are saved because they asked God to save them. They may then tell the supposed convert that they are saved no matter what. Many of these supposed converts never truly understand the gospel, much less believe on the Lord with all their heart.

If you are interested in an in depth study on the doctrine of election, I wrote a thesis on the subject I would gladly share.

I totally agree with you about love being the heart of Christianity. Love is superior to law. What many are espousing today in rejecting legalism is licence. The motto of the last church I pastored was "Real Christianity is spelled LOVE".

That is also why I chose this signature...

As I've argued for days now (and Jac for years): call it free will, free grace, easy believism, antinomianism, or any other term you wish. But that is the ultimate and inescapable logical conclusion of OSAS. Believe once and a person is saved, full stop. I know it's a hard truth to accept but such is the nature of hard truths.

[Canuckster1127]

This quote seems apt for some reason.

“I believe in justice: but I am not a preacher of the gospel of justice, but the Gospel of Christ who calls us to justice. I believe in love, but I am not a preacher of the gospel of love, but the Gospel of Christ who calls us to love. I am committed to peace, but I am not a preacher of the gospel of peace, but the Gospel of Christ who calls us to peace. I believe in the value of the simple life, but I am not the preacher of the simple life, but of the Gospel of Christ that calls us to the simple life. Let us beware of the ultimate plagiarism of borrowing some great concepts from Jesus then running off proclaiming these concepts and not sharing the Christ that empowers these concepts.”

~ Myron Augsburger, Former President of Eastern Mennonite Seminary, 1983.

[August]

I have been following this discussion for years (even met with Jac in person to discuss it), and I think what shapes my thinking around the topic is this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Can someone be born again without any change to who or what they are? Once one is born again, one is in the process of sanctification, and that is irrevocable. To say that one can apostate from sanctification may be a contradiction in terms, because that would indicate one was not truly born again...how can one become born again through the Spirit, and be in the process of being "made holy", and then not believe any more? God promises that while we will not be made perfect in this life, we will persevere in our faith:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

There is no way that you can fall into unbelief and still be saved:

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

But even more than that, I believe that once one is saved, you stay saved. But I do not agree that it is down to some intellectual assent or some weak-kneed prayer at an altar call (even though that is how my road to salvation started ). My assurance is not built on anything I can say or do, it is built on the assurance of Christ:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

[jlay]

Looks like I will have to come out of my self-imposed break, as it appears Jac is gone for good.

Luke 8:13

They believed for "a while". Thus, they had faith at one point and lost it.

Nonsense. If someone goes to a Bible college, goes to church every day and prays to Jesus, then it is safe to say that they believe. To deny this would require you to redefine the word "belief".

If you deny this, then how do you know that you "really" believe?

Defining belief and faith would be a good start. Your error is assuming that going to church, praying, or any action of man constitutes actual belief. And that those actions play a role in salvation. Sure, actions may evidence belief. They may also evidence tradition, or simply what the person 'believes' they should do. So it is not safe to assume that this person has trusted in Christ. It is truly amazing when working with kids how many wrong beliefs you can see perpetuated out there. I just asked a room full of elementary kids about salvation. The point being, to help them understand that this was a gift from God, and that no one, not even their parents could make a decision for them. So I asked if going to church every Sunday would make them a Christian. Some children were quick to point out that this was not true. Others beleived that simply going to church and following a Christian routine made them a Christian. To them, salvation was a pattern of life. Kind of like being born in America makes you an American. Becoming a child of God does not work this way. Sadly many continue into adulthood with this kind of belief. They may even have an intellectual belief in the life of Christ. But does that mean they have placed their faith 'In Christ?' Have they seen in their heart, the reality of the life, works and words of Christ. Has that connected with their own spiritual condition. Isn't that the context of John 3:16? Jesus is revealing a spiritual need. 'You must be born again.' It isn't surprising that this is a one on one conversation, as personal salvation is an individual matter. (Jesus on many occassions addressed the collective salvation of Israel.) John 3:16 is the Eureka moment. Knowing who Jesus is, what He said, and what He did may certainly be an intellectual matter. Trusting in it, is a matter of the heart.

I certainly appreciate what Truthman had to say about Luke 8:13. There is another explanation to this verse. But we must carefully examine what it says.
What is meant by 'fall away?' Does that mean to lose one's salvation? I'd say the burden of proof is on those who say it is. I see no indication in v13 that the belief mentioned is anything but the belief consistent with how it is used in the rest of the text. The original greek uses the same word, Pistueo. v12 says, "Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."

The text actually connects right belief to salvation, or unbelief with no salvation. It is not believing that condemns them. No other verse says anything about them not being saved. One would have to take falling away as meaning not saved. Yet, why would Jesus use the term saved in one verse and be clear, and not in another? In the text Jesus also shows the fruit of living faith. Just as those in v 14 are described as not maturing. So does 'not maturing' also mean unsaved? It doesn't say they are not saved. It says they are immature. Those who live in the good heart of faith WILL produce. Paul teaches this in Ephesians. The first three chapters he spends showing the beleivers what they have by grace through faith. In chapter 4 he says, since you have all this, walk (live) in a way that demonstrates your spiritual position. Those who don't will be innefective. Continuing in the faith is the only way to produce fruit. Only in one instance of the four can we say they were not saved. The one in which Jesus plainly says so. BW, I disagree with your reading of the text.

And what is the fruit? Well, Jesus hints that it has something to do with increase. Increase of what?
This is why I am so amazed at those who want to insist that faith is only saving if it produces works. So, what are the works that merit consideration? I have a feeling that if our average Christian would examine their own lives, they may come up lacking. Is the increase just simply being a good little Christian, saying nice things to people, etc. Or is their more to it. Does it require minsitry service? If so, how much, and what type. James gives an example of works. How many beleivers are actually directly caring for the needy in a ministry role? Can a one week mission trip once a year get you a check mark for this?

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, might, and soul - and love thy neighbor as thyself - Jesus said somewhere - why are we so afraid to love God?

Jesus equated love with obedience. Not in the legal sense. He said, 'those who love me will obey my commandments.' Jesus is connecting a right effect to a right cause. Love results in obedience. BW, I know I have failed in so many ways to rightly love my wife. And also in rightly loving God. So, if my salvation is tied to this, then I am doomed. The more I grow in the faith, I don't conclude that I am loving God better, but just how inept my love really is. Was Jesus point about love? Or is He saying that the only way to live out your salvation is to abide. Legal works are not abiding, and not loving, and thus not obedient.

I believe in the life changing gospel. Based on my own life, I do trust that when someone rightly believes, they are born again, and as a result they are saved and sealed by the Lord. Sure, I don't see how someone can come to rightly trust in the Lord without contrition, and an awakening. I've experienced it. However, there were times between my initial faith and the actual works, where my faith was dead. And so, I have renounced trying to tie any works, deeds, etc. to what constitutes true saving faith. I see it as a futile argument. As BW mentions, how do you distinquish heart felt produce from man made effort. One is fruit, the other is phony. All I can do is rest in the assurance that God has saved me. As far as works. All I can do is respond to God in that hope.

BW, I don't think that we can sum up all the different camps on OSAS in to one group. The best way I can put it is that right belief results in right salvation.

Guys like Finney, although very convincing in their preaching on the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man, also preach that repentance is "turning from ones sin," which is simply not how the word repentance is defined. The bible on more than one occassion says God repented. The bible in places may say to, "repent of one's sin." But, the word repent in and of itself does not mean this. If one has to first 'turn from all their sin,' to be saved, then this is a self sanctifiying gospel. That doesn't say, come as you are. It says, clean up your life, then come to Christ. This is a dangerous manipulation of the gospel. One that many Christians have believed because it has been preached so dogmatically for so many years.
Byblos, I agree, but again would emphasize the importance of RIGHT BELIEF. We know that Christ's work is complete and sufficient. There is nothing lacking in this regard. What has God called us to do? Beleive. So this believe must be genuine.
Even this aspect is from God, as only he can beckon to the heart of man, and bring him to a place where he will trust in the work of Christ. We must be born from above. If a person's belief is born of man, then it will not save.

Remember Jonah? All indications indict him of someone who fell away, as we debate, but did he? No — he came around and did the will of God, that God intended for him because the Lord foreknew the final result that his call would have on his life. No matter how far Jonah ran, Jonah would hear, come to understand, and be transformed by God's ever shaping-molding hands that Jonah could not effectively jump out of.

Not really. Jonah never repented of his desire to see Nineveh destroyed. He obeyed God, but his heart was never in the matter, as the end of the story indicates. He resented God for showing mercy.

[smiley]

Defining belief and faith would be a good start. Your error is assuming that going to church, praying, or any action of man constitutes actual belief. And that those actions play a role in salvation.

Actually, I precisely don't think these things constitute belief. But that is what the Lordship definition of belief (that truthman subcribes to) as I see it is--commitment, loving God and all that good stuff.

Anyway, truthman's entire "rebuttal" essentially consists of redefining belief into "that which necessarily produces good fruit" and then concluding that everything that does not fit this definition is not "true" faith. Basically a No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Canuckster1127]

You have two propositions based upon Faith and Works that yield 4 possible combinations.

1. A person has no faith in Christ and evidences no works = Lost
2. A person claims faith in Christ in terms of intellectual assent and evidences no works = Lost
3. A person has no faith in Christ and evidence works from a motivation other than a genuine relationship with Christ = Lost
4. A person has faith in Christ and evidence works on that basis= Saved

I'm not necessarily agreeing with this. I'm just trying to simplify what I think I'm hearing in as simple a manner as possible.

Frankly, I think the framework being used to approach the question carries the seeds of it's own presumptions and lead to those presumptions as a conclusion. Every one of those examples above assume the primary responsibility of the "believer" and in the end only gives lip service to the finished work of Christ. Go too far in that direction however an then your flirting with easy believism or even universalism.

That's the inherent danger of viewing these things as a two dimensional spectrum. You assume only two variables and logic confines you to limited conclusions without examining the premises you take in as to whether they are indeed the only two variables.

Don't know if that helps, but that's what comes to mind for me, anyway.

[jlay]

I can't speak for truthman in that regard.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with this. I'm just trying to simplify what I think I'm hearing in as simple a manner as possible.

I appreciate your explanation, and think it expanded on what I was trying to communicate to Byblos.

[Byblos]

Byblos, I agree, but again would emphasize the importance of RIGHT BELIEF. We know that Christ's work is complete and sufficient. There is nothing lacking in this regard. What has God called us to do? Beleive. So this believe must be genuine.

And that's the crux of the whole discussion. How does one know it is genuine belief, based on saving faith? The answer is no one can because there is always the possibility it may turn out to be a false belief based on no faith. At the heart of the discussion is NOT whether or not one can lose their salvation, it is the assurance they had it to begin with. Bottom line is assurance takes on one of 2 forms: 1) either an absolute assurance, without any conditions of any kind, or 2) a moral assurance with conditions (conditioned on right belief).

Even this aspect is from God, as only he can beckon to the heart of man, and bring him to a place where he will trust in the work of Christ. We must be born from above. If a person's belief is born of man, then it will not save.

I certainly agree (and not just for the sake of this discussion). It is ALL God's work, even the faith I have to believe in him.

[sinnerbybirth]

I'm just curious, with differing doctrines being taught today on the OSAS issue. If a person goes to church, listens to the message being taught. Receives the message being taught about the fact they can't loose their salvation. Then dies.....what next. Do they inherit the kingdom of GOD? People here seem to be able to back up there belief with scripture, very well might I add. I believe GOD judges a man or womans heart. No matter what their view is on OSAS. Paul said in Philippians 2: 12-13 to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. I also keep in mind what Paul says in Colossians 2:8 . See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

I enjoyed what someone said earlier about Love. GOD is Love. 1 John 4:8. I came up with 352 matches for the word love, just in the NASB. Love also seems to cover a multitude of sins. See 1 Peter 4:8 . Verse 9 says "Show hospitality to one another without grumbling" Hmmm. And verse 10 "As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of GOD's varied grace".

A friend of mine (yes I have friends) likes to say "just because we fill our head with scripture, and can quote it all day long, doesn't mean we fully understand it" after all, the final judge is GOD, and GOD alone.

My personal opinion about OSAS is, does it really matter in the end? If our sites are on GOD alone, we as Christians will prevail. Its not about who can put another feather in thier cap.

Peace, LOVE, Hope.

[truthman]

I have been following this discussion for years (even met with Jac in person to discuss it), and I think what shapes my thinking around the topic is this:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Can someone be born again without any change to who or what they are? Once one is born again, one is in the process of sanctification, and that is irrevocable. To say that one can apostate from sanctification may be a contradiction in terms, because that would indicate one was not truly born again...how can one become born again through the Spirit, and be in the process of being "made holy", and then not believe any more? God promises that while we will not be made perfect in this life, we will persevere in our faith:

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

There is no way that you can fall into unbelief and still be saved:

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

But even more than that, I believe that once one is saved, you stay saved. But I do not agree that it is down to some intellectual assent or some weak-kneed prayer at an altar call (even though that is how my road to salvation started ). My assurance is not built on anything I can say or do, it is built on the assurance of Christ:

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."

Well said. I totally agree. That is the same thing I have been saying. Where have you been hiding? I had concluded almost everyone on here was an Arminian.

[Byblos]

Well said. I totally agree. That is the same thing I have been saying. Where have you been hiding? I had concluded almost everyone on here was an Arminian.

Lol, now that is funny. August, do you want to take this one or should I?