Looks like I will have to come out of my self-imposed break, as it appears Jac is gone for good.
smiley wrote:
Luke 8:13
They believed for "a while". Thus, they had faith at one point and lost it.
Nonsense. If someone goes to a Bible college, goes to church every day and prays to Jesus, then it is safe to say that they believe. To deny this would require you to redefine the word "belief".
If you deny this, then how do you know that you "really" believe?
Defining belief and faith would be a good start. Your error is assuming that going to church, praying, or any action of man constitutes actual belief. And that those actions play a role in salvation. Sure, actions may evidence belief. They may also evidence tradition, or simply what the person 'believes' they should do. So it is not safe to assume that this person has trusted in Christ. It is truly amazing when working with kids how many wrong beliefs you can see perpetuated out there. I just asked a room full of elementary kids about salvation. The point being, to help them understand that this was a gift from God, and that no one, not even their parents could make a decision for them. So I asked if going to church every Sunday would make them a Christian. Some children were quick to point out that this was not true. Others beleived that simply going to church and following a Christian routine made them a Christian. To them, salvation was a pattern of life. Kind of like being born in America makes you an American. Becoming a child of God does not work this way. Sadly many continue into adulthood with this kind of belief. They may even have an intellectual belief in the life of Christ. But does that mean they have placed their faith 'In Christ?' Have they seen in their heart, the reality of the life, works and words of Christ. Has that connected with their own spiritual condition. Isn't that the context of John 3:16? Jesus is revealing a spiritual need. 'You must be born again.' It isn't surprising that this is a one on one conversation, as personal salvation is an individual matter. (Jesus on many occassions addressed the collective salvation of Israel.) John 3:16 is the Eureka moment. Knowing who Jesus is, what He said, and what He did may certainly be an intellectual matter. Trusting in it, is a matter of the heart.
I certainly appreciate what Truthman had to say about Luke 8:13. There is another explanation to this verse. But we must carefully examine what it says.
What is meant by 'fall away?' Does that mean to lose one's salvation? I'd say the burden of proof is on those who say it is. I see no indication in v13 that the belief mentioned is anything but the belief consistent with how it is used in the rest of the text. The original greek uses the same word, Pistueo. v12 says, "Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they
may not believe and be saved."
The text actually connects right belief to salvation, or unbelief with no salvation. It is not believing that condemns them. No other verse says anything about them not being saved. One would have to take falling away as meaning not saved. Yet, why would Jesus use the term saved in one verse and be clear, and not in another? In the text Jesus also shows the fruit of living faith. Just as those in v 14 are described as not maturing. So does 'not maturing' also mean unsaved? It doesn't say they are not saved. It says they are immature. Those who live in the good heart of faith WILL produce. Paul teaches this in Ephesians. The first three chapters he spends showing the beleivers what they have by grace through faith. In chapter 4 he says, since you have all this, walk (live) in a way that demonstrates your spiritual position. Those who don't will be innefective. Continuing in the faith is the only way to produce fruit. Only in one instance of the four can we say they were not saved. The one in which Jesus plainly says so. BW, I disagree with your reading of the text.
And what is the fruit? Well, Jesus hints that it has something to do with increase. Increase of what?
This is why I am so amazed at those who want to insist that faith is only saving if it produces works. So, what are the works that merit consideration? I have a feeling that if our average Christian would examine their own lives, they may come up lacking. Is the increase just simply being a good little Christian, saying nice things to people, etc. Or is their more to it. Does it require minsitry service? If so, how much, and what type. James gives an example of works. How many beleivers are actually directly caring for the needy in a ministry role? Can a one week mission trip once a year get you a check mark for this?
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, might, and soul - and love thy neighbor as thyself - Jesus said somewhere - why are we so afraid to love God?
Jesus equated love with obedience. Not in the legal sense. He said, 'those who love me will obey my commandments.' Jesus is connecting a right effect to a right cause. Love results in obedience. BW, I know I have failed in so many ways to rightly love my wife. And also in rightly loving God. So, if my salvation is tied to this, then I am doomed. The more I grow in the faith, I don't conclude that I am loving God better, but just how inept my love really is. Was Jesus point about love? Or is He saying that the only way to live out your salvation is to abide. Legal works are not abiding, and not loving, and thus not obedient.
I believe in the life changing gospel. Based on my own life, I do trust that when someone rightly believes, they are born again, and as a result they are saved and sealed by the Lord. Sure, I don't see how someone can come to rightly trust in the Lord without contrition, and an awakening. I've experienced it. However, there were times between my initial faith and the actual works, where my faith was dead. And so, I have renounced trying to tie any works, deeds, etc. to what constitutes true saving faith. I see it as a futile argument. As BW mentions, how do you distinquish heart felt produce from man made effort. One is fruit, the other is phony. All I can do is rest in the assurance that God has saved me. As far as works. All I can do is respond to God in that hope.
BW, I don't think that we can sum up all the different camps on OSAS in to one group. The best way I can put it is that right belief results in right salvation.
Guys like Finney, although very convincing in their preaching on the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man, also preach that repentance is "turning from ones sin," which is simply not how the word repentance is defined. The bible on more than one occassion says God repented. The bible in places may say to, "repent of one's sin." But, the word repent in and of itself does not mean this. If one has to first 'turn from all their sin,' to be saved, then this is a self sanctifiying gospel. That doesn't say, come as you are. It says, clean up your life, then come to Christ. This is a dangerous manipulation of the gospel. One that many Christians have believed because it has been preached so dogmatically for so many years.
Byblos, I agree, but again would emphasize the importance of RIGHT BELIEF. We know that Christ's work is complete and sufficient. There is nothing lacking in this regard. What has God called us to do? Beleive. So this believe must be genuine.
Even this aspect is from God, as only he can beckon to the heart of man, and bring him to a place where he will trust in the work of Christ. We must be born from above. If a person's belief is born of man, then it will not save.
Remember Jonah? All indications indict him of someone who fell away, as we debate, but did he? No — he came around and did the will of God, that God intended for him because the Lord foreknew the final result that his call would have on his life. No matter how far Jonah ran, Jonah would hear, come to understand, and be transformed by God's ever shaping-molding hands that Jonah could not effectively jump out of.
Not really. Jonah never repented of his desire to see Nineveh destroyed. He obeyed God, but his heart was never in the matter, as the end of the story indicates. He resented God for showing mercy.