Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote:

zoegirl wrote:However, when one proclaims that it ISn;t a sin, then we would have some problems, agreed?

Define/state the proclamation. Is it one claimed I made? If so, point me to it or restate it for me.

My stance here is that simply BEING a homosexual is not A sin. It is the unnatural acts of homosexuality that is sin. We are all equally sinners and sinful apart from our sins that can be counted humanly speaking.
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BW, In order for someone to BE a homosexual, he must have a sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, correct? If someone is sexually attracted to someone of the same sex, isn't that a perversion? I believe it isn't the same as a heterosexual person saying that he's physically/sexually attracted to the opposite sex. God created a strong sexual desire in us. A desire for the opposite sex. If Joe Schmoe says he's a pedophile, but doesn't lust after or rape little kids, does that mean he's sinning? Of course it does. He wouldn't be considered a pedophile if his normal sexual attraction wasn't perverted into an attraction for little kids. Same as a homosexual. Normal, God given sexual attraction for the opposite sex is perverted with sexual attraction for the same sex.

Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

zoegirl wrote:Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

So, do you think that being sexually attracted to a little kid or someone of the same sex isn't a sin?

RickD wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

So, do you think that being sexually attracted to a little kid or someone of the same sex isn't a sin?

Satan tempting us is not a sin, he will always try, but as long as we do not give into that urge, it is not a sin. It is written "Resist the devil and he must flee." Do know though that lusting after someone is a sin and there seems to be a fine line there. In those situations where someone is attracted to what you said above they need to pray and turn their eyes to the Lord and fellow believers for help and resist that temptation. I think that the Church needs to become a stronger family again and stop judging and dividing and pushing people like that away, and instead reach out to them with the love of the Lord.

Just my two cents brother, God Bless.

RickD wrote:BW, In order for someone to BE a homosexual, he must have a sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, correct?

Correct.

RickD wrote:If someone is sexually attracted to someone of the same sex, isn't that a perversion?

No more a perversion than that of a heterosexual lusting for a woman that isn't his wife...and even perverted lust towards a wife, I would argue is a perversion.

RickD wrote:I believe it isn't the same as a heterosexual person saying that he's physically/sexually attracted to the opposite sex.

Of course not. That's not the issue here. The question, if you read back a bit on the table is:
Can a homosexual practice homosexuality to his/her dying day (there is a caveat here) and be counted a Christian, more so, can he/she still be saved?

RickD wrote:God created a strong sexual desire in us. A desire for the opposite sex.

So can a heterosexual with sexual perversion as his/her "problem sin" still be Christian?

RickD wrote:If Joe Schmoe says he's a pedophile, but doesn't lust after or rape little kids, does that mean he's sinning? Of course it does. He wouldn't be considered a pedophile if his normal sexual attraction wasn't perverted into an attraction for little kids. Same as a homosexual. Normal, God given sexual attraction for the opposite sex is perverted with sexual attraction for the same sex.

I disagree. He/she is still a pedophile, but having HAD the problem doesn't make them actively sin continually. Likewise being a heterosexual pervert doesn't make you one 24/7. Arguing from a Christian stand point, all of these people have their problem and inclinations. This does not make THEM anymore a sinner than you and me that don't have these tendencies. We have our own sins to work out...they may not include homosexuality and/or heterosexual perversity. Does that put you and me on a higher, more Godly plane than they? Just because we are not "sexually perverted" makes us somehow more holy than they?

As Zoegirl mentioned...being tempted is not a sin.
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RickD wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

So, do you think that being sexually attracted to a little kid or someone of the same sex isn't a sin?

Depends on the person's reaction to being tempted. If it is a person that has newly given their life to Christ and is still struggling, do you not think they will be tempted to their limit if not more just to get them to fall? Or does the devil play nice?
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good point. Obviously CHrist equated lusting after a woman in one's mind to adultery. And obviously one sins with ones thoughts. But one can hardly deny an attractive pull when one looks at a woman for a heterosexual. So where do you draw the line between sexual sin in one's thoughts and simple attraction?

I once heard a description this way. A man on a beach simply sitting there. He came there with his family and they have dispersed as families often do, with friends, in the water, etc. As he turns, he sees two young women walk away from him. He cannot sees their faces and at first he has a tug of attraction to them. They are in their late teens and of course are very attraction. As they turn around he realizes with disgust at himself that the one is his daughter and he just hadn't recognized her from behind. He is sick to his stomach. Has he sinned? He was definitely attracted to the woman but did he entertain those thoughts?

I am trying not to give any impression that I diminish the horror and disgust at the thought of the pedophile's mind. From the limited knowledge I have about it, very few fight it to begin with. If they at all allow the thoughts to take root, then yes they are sinning!

Gabrielman wrote:

RickD wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

So, do you think that being sexually attracted to a little kid or someone of the same sex isn't a sin?

Satan tempting us is not a sin, he will always try, but as long as we do not give into that urge, it is not a sin. It is written "Resist the devil and he must flee." Do know though that lusting after someone is a sin and there seems to be a fine line there. In those situations where someone is attracted to what you said above they need to pray and turn their eyes to the Lord and fellow believers for help and resist that temptation. I think that the Church needs to become a stronger family again and stop judging and dividing and pushing people like that away, and instead reach out to them with the love of the Lord.

Just my two cents brother, God Bless.

Gab, I see what you're saying, especially the part about the fine line. And, I believe we we shouldn't stop judging people's sin, just not the person himself. There is a fine line with that as well.

RickD wrote:And, I believe we we shouldn't stop judging people's sin, just not the person himself. There is a fine line with that as well.

Very true, hate the sin, not the sinner!

So can a heterosexual with sexual perversion as his/her "problem sin" still be Christian?

I think under certain circumstances,absolutely yes. The question then would be if that person is convicted by the Holy Spirit that their sin is wrong, and with God's help, is resisting the temptation. Some professing believers think that homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality. Then, I would have to question whether that person is really a Christian with the Holy Spirit inside him.

BavarianWheels wrote:

RickD wrote:

zoegirl wrote:Being tempted is not a sin...it is feeding that temptation and allowing it root and giving in that would be sin...

So, do you think that being sexually attracted to a little kid or someone of the same sex isn't a sin?

Depends on the person's reaction to being tempted. If it is a person that has newly given their life to Christ and is still struggling, do you not think they will be tempted to their limit if not more just to get them to fall? Or does the devil play nice?
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That person may be delivered from that desire immediately when accepting Christ, or may struggle with that temptation for a long time. God works in different ways with different people. So, we agree.

BavarianWheels wrote: Is it your belief that we are not sinful...sinful from conception? Do you deny Adam passed on his sinfulness to his offspring?

Christ is the "drug".

Now you are putting words into my mouth. No.. We are sinful. The problem here is that sin starts with us, not our genes as you propose. And we have the power to control our sins if we stay in Christ. 1 John 3:5-6

BavarianWheels wrote: Not a wise guy, just one pointing out your mistake in my words

I understand what you are saying and I totally disagree with you. We sin by choice, not genetics. That sinful nature is in our very souls..

BavarianWheels wrote:If you get it, why do you continue in changing it? The fact of the matter is you don't get it. Genetics, you are right, have nothing to do whether something is sinful or not. If it goes against God and His will, it is sin. The spiritual conflict you speak of is generic and permeates us all, whether homo or heterosexual. You are right...WE sin, not our body. Our body is just sinFUL. Our sin nature is handed to us at conception...that's genetic. It's not a bunch of "crap" as your "Christianity" puts it.

Let's put it this way. Adam handed sin down genetically. So what then makes us sinful? Is it sin IN us or do we become sinful at the first sinful act?

So you agree with me.. What I'm saying is that it is not genetic.. It's a SPIRITUAL conflict. And we can change our ways when we stay with God, not our genetics. But no, I never said we would be perfect.

BavarianWheels wrote: So you're an authority now on the feelings and psyche of every homosexual AND heterosexual (for that matter)?

No I'm a sinner just like everyone else. What I seem to have figured out is that God can cure us if we let him.

BavarianWheels wrote:We don't sin by choice, we are born sinners and as Christians we struggle at sin because it is NOT NATURAL TO DO GOD'S WILL. Homosexual acts are sinful. Being a "genetic" homosexual is no more sinful than being a "genetic" heterosexual. Each has it's own sinful sexual thoughts and one is not "better" than the other. There is no heirarchy of sin. Is heterosexual sodomy a better sin than homosexual sodomy?

I disagree, we sin by choice, and we can follow Him by choice.. John 7:17 Genetics have no part in it.. It isn't a hierarchy of sin, no, but our bodies don't do sin, WE do it.. That is where we disagree.

BavarianWheels wrote: I said that? Where? If I did, it was in the context of wilful like one thumbing their nose at God.
Wow! Who now is twisting scripture? So all this hype scripture talks about that sin was handed down from Adam is a lie? Romans 7:14-24

Not at all.. I'm simply saying that sin is a spiritual problem. Not a physical problem. Sin is IN us right now....

BavarianWheels wrote: disagrees, but of course later on it explains the difference of living according to the sinful nature and living according to the Spirit. No where in scripture are we told we can overcome sin and be sinless.

Jeremiah 17:9 declares that man's HEART is desperately wicked, and the heart affects the mind, not the genetics.

BavarianWheels wrote:That only comes at the last trump... If we have the faith that saves, we need not worry about when we fall. He is there to pick us up WHATEVER our pet sin is. If I, in my heart, am truly leaning on Christ to get me through life and my pitfalls, then He is willing and will pick me up. Thanks be to God that He doesn't toss the homosexuals (or heterosexuals) aside that truly seek Him. Each has their own set of sexual struggles. Both, God is able to work with and save if they will let Him. There is no sin too great for God to work through except the unpardonable sin...and it is not even close to a sexual sin. One can be a "Mother Theresa" and still commit the unpardonable sin.

As a moderator, I suppose you're allowed to use these tactics of word twisting, name calling and cursing. That's ok. The old Bav would throw some back at you, however I wont.

The point of the matter is NOT that a genetic disposition to homosexuality is an excuse, but the point is that homosexuality become less and less a life choice and more and more a "natural" choice given the sin "gene" (I think you know what I mean when I say "sin gene") keeps doing it's work at manipulating our already sinful bodies/nature. The proof I have of this is the same proof you use to prove God exists. There is no proof other than evidence...the evidence of homosexuals that know they are "naturally" attracted to their same gender. For most, it is not a simple choice made on a whim. However that's not to say that some don't make that choice "unnaturally" on simple emotion, anger, trauma, or psychological problems. (among others)

So if by saying this, I'm giving a false hope, so be it. God is bigger than all sin and can and will save the worst of sinners WHATEVER the sin if the sinner but reach out in the slightest. Christ will reach out and grab hold of you even if you are a homosexual! As the father ran out to the Prodigal son, so the Father will run out to us even in our sin. It is not a false hope that God can save a homosexual. To limit God and say He can't or wont is a bigger sin. Does this give a homosexual license to commit homosexual acts without fear of reprisal? Does this give ANY OF US that liberty?

I notice you again have avoided the question.

Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?
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Yes they can... However, according to your beliefs, people cannot truly change their genetic ways because of heredity.. Sin is no longer a sin, it's a chemical dependency.. Homosexuality is now considered an alternative lifestyle. That is a lie from Hell... And contrary to 1 John 3:5-6, Romans 6:14, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Romans 6:17-18, 1 John 5:18.

babies are innocent.

I don't know. Anyone who's had kids, and is around kids, knows that they do a lot of incredibly selfish and mean things. That, to me, is NOT innocent. I'm just saying, and not trying to pick a fight. A newborn baby just lays there for a week, adjusting to its new environment. No sin going on there, at least. A lesson for all of us. Just lay around and sleep all the time - perfect cure for sin.


A Y323 - Thanks for sharing what CS Lewis said!

On a lighter note, I found this quote that I thought was funny from C.S. Lewis.

"He that but looketh on a plate of ham and eggs to lust after it hath already committed breakfast with it in his heart."

That's really from CS Lewis? I'm wondering where it's from - it just sounds so different for him. But then, maybe it's in one of his letters.


I liked reading this thread, for the most part. It raised so many aspects of the homosexuality and sin issue - it was good reading the different (though not all very different) views on it. I struggle with the issue some, though I don't think of it that often. I mean, if it does turn out (and I'm not saying I believe this) that there is some genetic factor involved with some people (some gays are gay by choice, yes), and they don't have special strength from the Lord to not be close to someone they love, then what does that mean? I've read of many that marry and have sexual relations with a woman anyway . . . If they know that living as a homosexual would be "living in sin" and they seek the Lord to help them try to not live that way, then I guess that's the most we can hope for. I have read of homosexuals who remain celibate because of their faith, and I praise God for giving them the grace and strength for that; I also praise God for forgiving all those who come to Him, seeking His mercy, when they are weak.

Well, looks like the parties still going

First, I still say for a straight man to call himself gay then he must of had some kind of crazy, evil, twisted ,insane activity going on with his body, mind and soul. Seriously, it would take some kind of anti miracle of epic unholy proportions for a straight man to want another dude. And if a straight man did call himself gay then it only confirms that he gave into the lust that he obviously wanted. And for what reason? Why would a straight man give in if he did not want someone? This is not love we are talking about, it's unnatural desire/lust, not natural male love. And this would not just happen out of the blue. The aforementioned straight man would of been meditating on everything he was being fed before he made the choice that he needed to be gay to get what he wanted. Just my (more likely than not) opinion.

Cslewislover, that is an interesting thought, I'll bite.. If a man (for example) were to be born homosexual then he would most likely have no desire at all to be delivered from his homosexual nature. And he would not want a woman anymore than a straight man would want another man, the idea of it would no doubt disgust him. In fact, he would love being who he is and love being attracted to men. And I'm sure he would find no humor at all in God telling him that he can never be with the one he loves, it would be like some kind of sick twisted joke to him. And Just as a person who was born blind would have a very limited understanding of what it means to see. A genetic homosexual would have a very limited understanding of the beauty involved with Gods perfectly designed union between a husband and wife. But God had nothing to do with Mans choices concerning sin and he warned of it's effects. However, life as a genetic homosexual would seem rather harsh and cruel if the homosexual was a Christian or believed there was a God.

(Not talking to you cslewislover) But I still think that the whole genetic idea is a workaround. It still changes nothing, absolutely nothing. The only thing it is good for is an excuse. And the whole idea (while scientifically logical) contradicts to much of the bible. You can be delivered from sins by doing what is right. You want a girl, marry her, problem solved. Then making love is 100% God approved, legal and sin free. But this wont work at all with a genetic homosexual, no matter what.

And in either case, as I said, nothing would change but for the fact that (if it's genetic) they would need a miracle. But if a person remained a genetic homosexual, they could never be married to the same sex in Gods eyes, teaching that homosexuality is acceptable in schools would still be wrong, enforcing laws that interfere with the church would still be wrong, they could never have sex with the same gender no matter what and not have it be a sin and they still can not have a church office. Concerning the church office, even if they don't practice homosexuality, calling themselves gay would still not look good to those who are unsaved. But if they are not going to say they are gay then I think it would be ok. However, if science could prove that people can be born gay and the aforementioned gay person did not practice homosexuality then I would say the church might want to consider teaching why it is ok for a genetic gay to have an office. But this whole idea just requires one to really stretch the limits of the bible.

BavarianWheels.

I understand what you have been saying and I still say you have a good heart. I hope you did not misunderstand my motives. My life is dedicated to doing Gods work, I love doing it and would not trade it for anything, I love helping people. But I also know Gods love, I have seen and felt many amazing things and I know for a fact that if we are persistent God will respond. And I am not talking about respond with some kind of...maybe it was God or maybe it was a coincidence type thing. I mean 100% for real God powered, no way to deny it, unreal, way above what we know to be average respond. I am telling you that he can show us that he is real like you would not believe. I have seen speaking in tongues and all other gifts at work but that stuff is not even a warm-up compared to what he will do if we are seriously persistent.

I still stand by my last post concerning how to defeat sin addictions. But if we are talking about birth defects (not saying we are) than God (of coarse) can do that too. But understand that when I say persistent I mean that some people pray for 8 hours or more straight everyday, stubborn and determined until they get what they want from God.

All we have to do is really want something...maybe it won't take long for some but it will take longer for others. But what we can not do is to keep beliefs that are not inline with Gods (Jesus') word. And don't be technical about what the bible will allow concerning sin. Don't look for loopholes in the bible because there are none. Men and women who practice (do it repeatedly) homosexuality or any sin need to find ways to defeat their addiction, not build walls of logic to protect their sin. The bible is not to be used to protect sin, only to defeat it. Sin consumes your mind, body and soul...leaving nothing but death. And God does not want (he still loves them) lukewarm, half-baked Christians who know and understand the word of God but have no intentions of following it. As a Christian we should always put our best effort into obeying God and getting what he promised to us.

Those who are homosexuals can be delivered from homosexuality and we all can be delivered from anything. But we can't take the easy road. You say you tried, try harder...you have?? Then try much harder...Seek God and when you feel like you are ready to stop force yourself to keep going. And then when you are finally ready to stop, pray another hour. If we are serious, sincere and persistent then we can get what we ask from God.

I know this to be true...