Question about salvation assurance...

[B. W.]

Works are a result of one’s faith. By them, you cannot keep yourself saved or stay saved. The works we do are a result of faith; the kind of faith in the Lord that knows that no matter what we do - He remains true and faithful to His own words, promises, and gifts, and changes not.

That's the kind of Faith I desire to see in you James. You say you hope you can keep the faith and not stray. Your faith should pray:

Dear Father, in the name of your Son, Jesus, never let me go, if I try to walk away, give me a good swift kick in my h’ole'y seat to wake me up to my plight without you or just please carry me back to the Fold while I weep. Always never let me deny you in anything that comes my way, as you know all things - keep me in the way everlasting. Amen

James - Do you have the Faith to pray this prayer - do you believe He will honor that request to remain in His Grace despite whatever you may think you might do in the future?

What of Peter who declared to Jesus, "I will never deny you" then he later denied him three times - was he abandoned - forsaken. Now, according to a doctrine of works based salvation, Peter lost it all - but did he?

Do you think the words Jesus spoke in John 17:9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 do not apply to you? Think again -John 17:20

The works we do come about as an outflow of His Love from us howsoever he wills, John 17:25, 26, sometimes we become faithless but he remains faithful, teaching us how not to deny him ever again - That is part of His free Grace. Can you trust him to keep you and never let you go? Can you pray that?

Faith cements you into the Fold - not your works - have a little faith - James - in the Lord and what He can do - not in you what you can do... But in what He can do...and did
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[JamesScott]

B.W,

Thank you for yours replies.

This passage does not specify good works as the means to endure - it means soemthing else.

I didn't say the passage was speaking specifically of good works. I was saying we have to "endure" to be saved, so we are not saved in this present life. As the video I posted on page one pointed out; salvation is a process.

God will not cast away nor allow you to fully walk away

Well, I certainly hope he always allows me to have my free will...

for others during this time period s raptured - others endure the strain...

I'm sorry, I didn't understand this statement.

Since you were given to Christ by the Father - he is more than able to keep you from walking away and deliver you.

Yes, I pray everyday that He will deliver me from the evil one. But again, I don't want Him to keep me from walking away by overpowering my free will. And I don't believe He will ever overpower anyone's free will, anyway.

Is your faith in the Lord alone or is your faith in your own efforts to be saved?

My faith is in the Lord. My faith is not in my own efforts, but I certainly believe there must be works in the Christian life for one to be saved.

Do you really trust the Lord or yourself more?

I know if the Lord doesn't save me, then I won't be saved. No matter how many good works I do, the Lord must save me Himself. However, if I am a Christian, then I must do good works. I must have faith working in love; love for the Lord and love for man.

[JamesScott]

B.W,

Works are a result of one’s faith.

Exactly. If we have genuine faith, then we will do good works. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. However, there are those who have "faith," and yet do nothing about it. They just have faith in their heads, and it never produces works. That is faith alone, and it produces nothing. And there are people who say that such people as these can actually be {or are} saved...

do you believe He will honor that request to remain in His Grace despite whatever you may think you might do in the future?

God is full of grace. And I believe He will always receive me if I come in faith and repentance.

What of Peter who declared to Jesus, "I will never deny you" then he later denied him three times - was he abandoned - forsaken. Now, according to a doctrine of works based salvation, Peter lost it all - but did he?

I don't believe in works based salvation. I believe in faith working in love. And no, St. Peter did not lose his salvation. He repented.

The works we do come about as an outflow of His Love from us howsoever he wills,

That is not to say it comes easily. We must force ourselves to do good. Even as a Christian I don't want to love and pray for my enemies, but the Lord commands it of me. Yes, He will give me the strength of the Holy Spirit to do it, but my effort is needed. And it takes great effort.

Faith cements you into the Fold - not your works - have a little faith - James - in the Lord and what He can do - not in you what you can do... But in what He can do...and did

I do have faith in Him, and I agree with this statement.

[smiley]

There are literally tens of thousands of people who prayed not to fall away like James, and yet still fell away. James is perfectly right that he should tremble in fear on the "true faith will endure until the end" theology.

[jlay]

I was saying we have to "endure" to be saved, so we are not saved in this present life.

James,
All the videos in the world do not make this true. Today IS the day of salvation. Just as John said. I write these things that you may KNOW you have eternal life. Based on what I have read. YOu don't know. In fact you essentially say, you can't know. You don't know how much endurance, effort, struggle, and keepin on, it will take.

My faith is not in my own efforts, but I certainly believe there must be works in the Christian life for one to be saved.

This is a contradiction.

The book of James is always going to come up in this matter. And if one is holding to a particular frame work, then yes, this will tell the believer that he has to contribute something to be saved. If the person holds to this particular view, then they will have no choice but to have conflict and contradiction in the scripture. Paul and James will stand at odds. However, there may be a frame work from which to handle James where it fits the canon. One can learn a lot just by looking to whom is the intended audience. This book has caused great consternation amongst many. But, I do not believe it to be the book (which is God breathed) but the frame work that many operate and interpret from.

We could also discuss what constitutes good works. Is it our 'great effort?' What is a work?
It is scripturally clear that know one can produce fruit, or good works apart from first being truly saved, and then responding in contintued faith to His leading.

However, if I am a Christian, then I must do good works. I must have faith working in love; love for the Lord and love for man.

[/quote]
And do you?
James, I am all for faith working in love and producing good works. Forgive me if I don't see your endurance, efforts, and struggle as doing so.

[JamesScott]

There are literally tens of thousands of people who prayed not to fall away like James, and yet still fell away. James is perfectly right that he should tremble in fear on the "true faith will endure until the end" theology.

Thank you.

[JamesScott]

jlay,

All the videos in the world do not make this true.

No kidding...

I continue to speak of the video because it probably explains it better than I do.

I write these things that you may KNOW you have eternal life.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

St. John 17:3

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

Eternal life is not simply knowing we "are saved." It's knowing God. We know God through His Son. Notice in the epistle of St. John it tells us to "continue" believing in the name of the Son of God. If we are already saved, there would be no need for him to tell us to "continue". Knowing God is a choice. I can decide to stop trying to follow Jesus, stop praying, stop reading the Bible, etc.
I know thats a dreadful thought to you, but talk to some exChristians and you'll see what I'm talking about.

YOu don't know. In fact you essentially say, you can't know.

I say we are not saved and we cannot know we will be saved because we are still in the process of working out our own salvation. We are still running the race, as the Apostle St. Paul says. We are still in the battlefield. The war is not over yet. We will be saved when we persevere to the end. We'll be saved when we're saved.
We can, however, believe we will be saved and have confidence that we will be saved.

You don't know how much endurance, effort, struggle, and keepin on, it will take.

Sure I do; life long.

This is a contradiction.

No, I trust in Jesus. No matter what I do, I will not be saved if He does not save me. However, I must walk in the Way He has set before me.

The book of James is always going to come up in this matter.

The writings of St. Paul, too. He taught against salvation by following the Law, not by doing good Christian works.

If the person holds to this particular view, then they will have no choice but to have conflict and contradiction in the scripture.

No, I have found no contradictions in Scripture while holding this view. In fact, I find alot less. I don't have to say "By faith alone," anymore, when St. James clearly says "Not by faith alone." In fact, I have found no where in the Bible where it says we are saved by faith alone.

We could also discuss what constitutes good works. Is it our 'great effort?' What is a work?

One could say that. It takes work to resist temptation, to be good to those you don't like, and even to pray or read the Bible.

James, I am all for faith working in love and producing good works.

Good.
Because it's necessary.

Forgive me if I don't see your endurance, efforts, and struggle as doing so.

You don't have to.

[jlay]

Eternal life is not simply knowing we "are saved." It's knowing God. We know God through His Son. Notice in the epistle of St. John it tells us to "continue" believing in the name of the Son of God. If we are already saved, there would be no need for him to tell us to "continue". Knowing God is a choice. I can decide to stop trying to follow Jesus, stop praying, stop reading the Bible, etc.
I know thats a dreadful thought to you, but talk to some exChristians and you'll see what I'm talking about.

There is absolutely a reason to tell us to continue believing. Fellowship. Producing fruit. We can't produce if we are not abiding in Him through faith. You can decide to stop praying, reading, etc. I don't know why you would 'want,' ro or 'will' to. People stop doing those things for reasons beyond just deciding to. Laziness, sin, etc. As a believer, I would never imagine deciding to pray less, read less, etc. As a believer, knowing what i KNOW, I want to pray more, I want to study more. Does that always come to fruition? No.
I many end up praying less because of distractions, or many other reasons. I may knowingly do things or fail to do things, without willfully doing them. Big difference.

As far as someone who once claimed to have true faith, deciding to not believe; that creates a very interesting debate. That person does not and can not 'know' they are saved, because they have rejected the very thing that tells them they can know. Apostasy is different than works to be saved. Although there may be some similar issues in reference. If rejection of Christ is the issue, I would question whether their faith was true and genuine to begin with. In other words, how can someone have true faith, and KNOW something, and then reject what is KNOWN?
It's like looking in a mirror, and then immediately forgetting what you looked like.

Although we aren't qualified to judge a person's salvation, ultimately. Like James, we are able to judge it, livingly. My experience has been that you can learn through questioning whether a person who claims faith has testimony that is consistent with the scriptures. A person's testimony is written on the heart. It is obvious that Jesus, speaking to the Jews said that works, even mighty, prophetic and miraculous, are not a sign of salvation. (Matt 7)
If we see a professor of faith who lacks testimony, evidence, fruit, then yes, we should, like James bring this to the forefront.

Sure I do; life long.

Not based on what I've heard you say. How do you know that what you are 'doing' is correct and enough?
What are good works anyway? Please define what good works are for you in the first place?

In fact, I have found no where in the Bible where it says we are saved by faith alone.

I've already quoted you numerous verses early in this thread. And asked you to explain them. You didn't
Eph. 2:8-9 says grace through faith. And emphasizes, not of WORKS.

We are created FOR works. You will get no argument from me that a Christian should produce works.

[JamesScott]

jlay,

There is absolutely a reason to tell us to continue believing. Fellowship. Producing fruit.

Yes. And... To be saved. Or can we be saved without believing?

We can't produce if we are not abiding in Him through faith.

Yes, I know.

How do you know that what you are 'doing' is correct and enough?

We do the best we can. You're acting like I'm saying that we work our way to heaven. This is not the case. But faith is a word of action. We have faith in the Son of God, and we follow Him.

What are good works anyway? Please define what good works are for you in the first place?

I have already explained this.

Eph. 2:8-9 says grace through faith. And emphasizes, not of WORKS.

That is to say we cannot work our way to heaven. But if we have faith {faith=verb} we will do good works. That is why I say we are saved by faith and works.

You will get no argument from me that a Christian should produce works.

It seems as though I am getting an arguement from you in this.
And not only should a Christian produce good works, but it is essential for a Christian to do so.

[jlay]

How can you be sure that your works are genuine, and not like those in Matt. 7?

We do the best we can. You're acting like I'm saying that we work our way to heaven. This is not the case. But faith is a word of action. We have faith in the Son of God, and we follow Him.

You are saying we work our way to heaven. I find it nothing but absurd that you try to deny what you have stated and restated several times. You say that works are essential, necessary, required.

The best 'WE' can? What verse is that? "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and do the best you can, and you will be saved."

what if the best I can, doesn't produce as much as you do? Or vice versa? What if the best you can isn't good enough?
Don't you see the fallacy of this thinking?

I have already explained this.

I must have missed. Can you direct me?

That is why I say we are saved by faith and works.

That is NOT what this verse says. You say faith and works. Paul clearly says, "NOT OF WORKS."

We have faith in the Son of God, and we follow Him.

And so you are following Him faithfully? Jesus said, pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Him. How is that going for you?

[JamesScott]

jlay,

How can you be sure that your works are genuine, and not like those in Matt. 7?

Our works are good if they are done out of love for God and man.

You are saying we work our way to heaven.

Do not tell me what I am saying. I know very well what I'm saying and it's not that.
No matter how many good works we do, apart from faith, we cannot obtain salvation. THAT is working our way to heaven. And that is what I'm saying I do not believe. We must have faith, then work out our faith.

what if the best I can, doesn't produce as much as you do? Or vice versa? What if the best you can isn't good enough?

We each do what we are able to do.

I must have missed. Can you direct me?

I said on this very page, works may include resisting temptation, doing good for someone you don't like, and even praying. Sometimes it takes effort to pray.

That is NOT what this verse says. You say faith and works. Paul clearly says, "NOT OF WORKS."

Yea, we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. God didn't see our good works and grant us eternal life. He saves us by His grace, and we must come to Him in faith. And after we have faith there is work to be done, because faith and works are two sides of the same coin.

And so you are following Him faithfully? Jesus said, pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow Him. How is that going for you?

It is essential to do this. I'm not good at this right now, but God who works in me will help me with my efforts, and I will get better. That's what working our our salvation is all about: Getting better; healing from the sickness of sin.

Now its my turn to ask a question: How is someone saved? Yes, by faith, but what else? Do they have to say the "sinner's prayer," or what?

[jlay]

Now its my turn to ask a question: How is someone saved? Yes, by faith, but what else? Do they have to say the "sinner's prayer," or what?

A person is saved just as God's Word instructs. By trusting in Jesus as the Christ. John 5:24, 1 John 5:1, John 3:16.
The sinners prayer is no substitute for right faith, and has mislead many a poor soul.

[JamesScott]

Now its my turn to ask a question: How is someone saved? Yes, by faith, but what else? Do they have to say the "sinner's prayer," or what?

A person is saved just as God's Word instructs. By trusting in Jesus as the Christ. John 5:24, 1 John 5:1, John 3:16.
The sinners prayer is no substitute for right faith, and has mislead many a poor soul.

What do you mean its no substitute for right faith? I thought the sinner's prayer was all about faith.

And that's all you have to do? No Baptism, no Communion, no Church...

[jlay]

And that's all you have to do? No Baptism, no Communion, no Church...

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body...
When one rightly trust in Christ, they are baptized by the one spirit into one church. 1Cor 12:27
Water baptism is an appropriate response of faith for the believer, and is modeled as such by the early church.

Communion is no where mentioned as a requirement for salvation, nor is 'church,' which I assume you mean going to a church service. Communion is a sacrament to be cherished and upheld by the believer as instructed by the Lord and Paul.

Following the sacrements does not save you.

The sinner's prayer is about getting decisions, and is a product of easy believism. The sinner's prayer is as much lacking to save as are the sacraments. There is no value in repeating words of prayer if there is no true heart faith. A person who prays the sinners prayer is not saved because they prayed the prayer, but because of what they have decided with Christ Jesus. Have they trusted/beleived/faithed in Him. Just as a man can go through every sacrament and never truly come to Christ in faith, so can a person repeat the sinner's prayer without knowing the Lord.

[B. W.]

B.W, Thank you for yours replies.

This passage does not specify good works as the means to endure - it means something else.

I didn't say the passage was speaking specifically of good works. I was saying we have to "endure" to be saved, so we are not saved in this present life. As the video I posted on page one pointed out; salvation is a process.

So what I am hearing you say is this – We are not saved in this present life as it is a process. In other words does this mean you must earn it or show yourself worthy to become saved?

God will not cast away nor allow you to fully walk away

Well, I certainly hope he always allows me to have my free will...

So you are stating that your human Free Will trumps God?

Question, are you, or better stated is (human) free will, more powerful than God?

Since you were given to Christ by the Father - he is more than able to keep you from walking away and deliver you.

Yes, I pray every day that He will deliver me from the evil one. But again, I don't want Him to keep me from walking away by overpowering my free will. And I don't believe He will ever overpower anyone's free will, anyway.

Again you are stating that your human Free will is more powerful than God. That God bends and bows in submission to our human free will – never can violate it. Is that correct?

More importantly, I am hearing you state that you do not want him to keep you from walking away by over powering your free will – correct?

I hate to be the one to tell you this James, without violating humanities free will God would never be able to save anyone. Mankind, lost in sin and in rebellion against God could never and would never return to God. The hidden truth about rebellion is that it demands God to bow to mans terms. If God bowed to man, then God is no longer God true to his own nature and character. Humanity ignores god and creates ways that seek to entrap God to act contrary to himself. The free will statement you cite does just that.

People try to justify themselves through works to appease their conscience, or earn favor, or bribe the Idol to perform a favor for them because they did one for the gipper. God is not in the picture. On the other hand there are those that make good works the means to be justified in God’s sight thus telling God that his justification is not needed and neither is he. Human free will, works trump God and are able to tie his hands. Thus what I hear you state is that God must submit to your free will and not to His own will to save you the moment you first believed to the uttermost for fear of violating human free will

Bible reveals that he who fears is not made perfect in love 1 John 4:18; therefore, if God is so respectfully afraid of violating human free will – then accordingly He is not perfect. He just denied himself, wouldn’t he? However, because God is perfect, fears no one or thing, He loves and with such love how could he let you go? He who called you is faithful and will do it the bible says in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 24. Where is your faith?

God violated Jonah’s free will, if not, a heathen city would not have repented. If He had not violated my free will, I would have never consented to the gospel message. Neither would you.

You stated:

Yes, I pray every day that He will deliver me from the evil one. But again, I don't want Him to keep me from walking away by overpowering my free will. And I don't believe He will ever overpower anyone's free will, anyway.

Are you more powerful than God? If not, then why should and must he bow to your free will or even mine or anyone elses?

Don’t you want to take him at his word that he will never leave you or forsake you – Heb 13:5-6? Never let you go? Be able to pray with faith the prayer I shared?

So I see that you are not fully persuaded that God Loves you so much that he will not let you go. That, if you strayed, he would not come back for you? That he will not teach how to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil? That his grace is not sufficient for you? That simply trusting in him, what he promises is not enough – that you can do better job keeping yourself saved rather than He?

Where does the Holy Spirit reside in a Believer? Does this not make one born again of the Spirit and sealed forever to be his as 2 Co 1:22 - Eph 1:13, 14 2 Co 5:5 states the moment first believed? That He predestinated you to become conformed to be a reflection of Christ – Rom 8:29? What will it take for you to become fully persuaded in these truths - the promises of God?

How can you say your will is stronger than God and slap him in the face and say – No I need not your help – I have my free will – you can’t take from me God – you can’t na na na-na-na. I just hope in the future I can do enough good that in the end you God can accept me and save me but I reserve the right to walk away…just in case…don’t want you to stop that – no….

Are your works better than God’s? His work that will keep you forever saved the moment you first believed?

James! Where is your faith? In you free will or God’s loving hands? Are you motivated by fear to run from his loving arms sent to help you overcome? Where is your faith man!

Sounds like to me, your faith is in your free will. You have more faith in falling away than in the Lord who is more than able to keep you forever saved.

My words may sound harsh but they are spoken in a passion of God’s Love directed right at you - Where is your faith?

James, when does salvation begin?

What will it take before you become fully persuaded that nothing will separate you from God’s love? Become fully swayed that God to a believer is Daddy (Abba) who promises to give good things to those that ask him?

The prayer I would like you to pray – are you afraid God will give you a serpent or a scorpion instead of the good the prayer ask for? Where is your faith? How can you do works of love when you are not fully convinced that He loves you enough to hold you and never let you go? Is your view of God’s love so dim that you cannot see how he must violate your free will, conquer it, subdue, tame it, change it so His will becomes your own?

Where is your faith!
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