Evidence for God from Science

I really dig "humans" new avatar! LOL

cubeus19 wrote:I really dig "humans" new avatar! LOL

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Gman wrote:

Human wrote:Funny, I thought I was in love with Christ until his followers all started telling me I was going to hell for not turning life into one.

Anyhow, Gman, let's look at those Bible quotes you posted,

"Leviticus 20:13 --This is not relevant to the topic. Transsexuality and homosexuality are not the same or even closely related. A fair amount of TSes are asexual <_< (or any other orientation...some are hetero-)

Leviticus 18:22 -- Again, derailing the topic

...having read through again, I noticed none even touched on the topic at hand. At best there were some about sin in general, but none saying being (born a) transsexual was a sin, nor was fixing the dysphoria.

No one is born homosexual or true transsexual. Like it or not... Homosexuality is a sin...

http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/09 ... hasticity/
<_< Try doing actual research before saying things, perhaps? Many, many transsexuals(and homosexuals for that matter since you love bringing them up) would disagree with you. So would scientists studying the fields.
(Also, why do you consistently bring homosexuality into the discussion? It's a different thing entirely(being a sexual orientation while transsexuality has to do with gender...)

Human wrote:Funny, I thought I was in love with Christ until his followers all started telling me I was going to hell for not turning life into one.

This might be a little off-topic, but why in the world would the behavior of some Christians influence your love for Christ? I'm in love with my girlfriend, and if a couple of my friends told me I was dating the wrong person, I'd ignore them. I'm really confused why you would be so influenced by other people in something like this if the word 'love' accurately described it.

Back on topic...

You have said multiple times that a couple people are ignoring research and 'the facts' and 'science' on all of this. Yet, its an issue of morality, not science. I may have brought this up before, but as a young adult male, I have a problem with lust. It is perfectly normal, healthy biological behavior, yet it is totally morally wrong. If this truly is a cursed world because of sin, then certainly our very biology is tainted. Does that mean we embrace our biology? Or does it mean we conquer it? This whole thing just makes it more apparent, to me anyway, that our flesh really does fight against us.

Looking at your quote again, I hope you can see that I'm not saying you'll go to hell for any of these sorts of beliefs. I also hope you can see that regardless of our biology, Christianity has some clear-cut right and wrongs that free us, and often clash with what our sinful natures want to do.

I read through this thread and am completely appalled.

The arguements against transexualism were completely founded upon nothing at all. All there was to try and "dispove" the existence of transexuals and the morality of gender reassignment surgery for them was Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22, which deal with homosexuality and not transexualism. They are not the same thing. There was a very unfair and unfounded lumping of transexuals and homosexuals. The only real reason some of you don't believe in infant transexuals is because you don't want to believe that they exist. But they do and they have been documented. There are plently of cases where a baby's chromosomes go haywire at birth and they are born with male genitals but the mind and effeminate characteristics of a female. I've seen plenty of it in my Gender Studies course.

I am also amazed at some people living with a completely idealistic worldview rather than a realistic one. "No such thing as transexuals or infertile people"? Seriously? Because it doesn't say that they exist in the Bible? How about the tons and tons of people like my uncle who badly want to have kids but cant because they were BORN INFERTILE? Or the existence of hermaphrodites? Not all facts of life are mentioned in the Bible.
You can't just ignore obvious realities and facts and the way things actually are because you would rather believe a worldview that supports your personal Biblical interpretation. That is simply lunacy.

The big bottom line though is that I can't help but notice that Human's profile used to say "Christian: Yes" and now says "Christian: No" and has a picture of Satan from South Park, almost certainly because she was turned away by this thread. Looking through her earlier posts, she seemed to me like a genuine seeking Christian, and now she's not. This is exactly what I just posted about in the cross dressing thread, where people's ill-percieved self righteousness can turn people away from God because they get a false impression of Him from His followers.

Seraph wrote:The big bottom line though is that I can't help but notice that Human's profile used to say "Christian: Yes" and now says "Christian: No" and has a picture of Satan from South Park, almost certainly because she was turned away by this thread. Looking through her earlier posts, she seemed to me like a genuine seeking Christian, and now she's not. This is exactly what I just posted about in the cross dressing thread, where people's ill-percieved self righteousness can turn people away from God because they get a false impression of Him from His followers.

I mentioned this in my last post, and I know its off-topic, but as a 'genuine Christian' myself, I know that just because some people on a message board say things I don't like, it isn't going to impact my 'genuine Christianity' the the point of not being a Christian. I remain confused.

Admittedly, I haven't followed this entire thread, but if that's all it takes to abandon being a 'genuine Christian', something is amiss.

And before being misunderstood, I'm not trying to suggest that the behavior of Christians isn't important. I'm just astounded that a thread about Christian interpretations about sexuality is something that would convince someone to not be a Christian just because of the way it was presented. There is a lot of confusion here between morality and biology, but even if there wasn't, why would something like this so profoundly impact someone?

I guess I just don't get it.

You have said multiple times that a couple people are ignoring research and 'the facts' and 'science' on all of this. Yet, its an issue of morality, not science. I may have brought this up before, but as a young adult male, I have a problem with lust. It is perfectly normal, healthy biological behavior, yet it is totally morally wrong. If this truly is a cursed world because of sin, then certainly our very biology is tainted. Does that mean we embrace our biology? Or does it mean we conquer it? This whole thing just makes it more apparent, to me anyway, that our flesh really does fight against us.

Looking at your quote again, I hope you can see that I'm not saying you'll go to hell for any of these sorts of beliefs. I also hope you can see that regardless of our biology, Christianity has some clear-cut right and wrongs that free us, and often clash with what our sinful natures want to do.

True, very true. However.
When you feel lust and push it away, do you feel like a liar? I'd imagine if anything you'd feel better after the matter. Same with other sins; resisting the urge to steal doesn't result in self-loathing. However, when a transsexual tries to live as hir assigned gender, it is nothing short of lying. Furthermore, things simply do not make sense trying to live in such a way.
(Nonetheless, in the case of morality, the Bible speaks nothing about the topic so one is left to speculate)

As for my Christianity (or lack thereof), it isn't just this forum but the Christians I've talked to in general. "God's people" are the ones making my life utter torment and pushing me away. If God is supposedly loving and benevolent, why are the ones he supposedly hates generally more loving?

Human wrote:As for my Christianity (or lack thereof), it isn't just this forum but the Christians I've talked to in general. "God's people" are the ones making my life utter torment and pushing me away. If God is supposedly loving and benevolent, why are the ones he supposedly hates generally more loving?

This isn't intended to sound really judgmental, especially considering I've never met you and don't know you very well, but God is very much loving and benevolent and if it doesn't seem that way, it isn't usually His fault, but the fault of the person with those feelings (again, I'm not trying to judge here). I'm not sure of anyone God hates, so I'm not sure where you're going there... however if you are referring to nonchristians, it has been my experience that just the opposite is true. The hardline atheists I know are the most intolerant, nonsensical, nasty people I know, and they get annoyed when others find those attributes negative (I had one tell me that arrogance was a virtue of intelligent people, right before claiming that Adolf Hitler was a devout catholic).

In my experience (results may vary), God makes me miserable when I'm not following as I should be, which thankfully saves me from even more self-inflicted misery I'd have otherwise. It is interesting though that you see pain in life as a result of God's people's actions in your life. People aren't very reliable creatures, and you have more options than just to think that it means God isn't good. God may be trying to teach you something, or people may simply be acting as people.

However, I'll go back to what I said before - if your relationship with Christ is based on your relationship with people, you are going to be profoundly disappointed.

Seraph wrote:I read through this thread and am completely appalled.

.

I'm appalled too that transsexuality is thought to be an excepted practice and ordained of God!!


Have you gone mad?

Human wrote:
http://womenborntranssexual.com/2009/09 ... hasticity/
<_< Try doing actual research before saying things, perhaps? Many, many transsexuals(and homosexuals for that matter since you love bringing them up) would disagree with you. So would scientists studying the fields.
(Also, why do you consistently bring homosexuality into the discussion? It's a different thing entirely(being a sexual orientation while transsexuality has to do with gender...)

How is tansexuality and homosexuality connected? Why do you think transsexuals are dressing up that way? To get a job at the Macy's woman's department?

Also..

"The question of how homosexual orientation originates has been the subject of much press, with the general impression being promoted that homosexuality is largely a matter of genes, rather than environmental factors. However, if one examines the scientific literature, one finds that it's not quite as clear as the news bytes would suggest. The early studies that reported differences in the brains of homosexuals were complicated by HIV infection and were not substantiated by larger, better controlled studies. Numerous studies reported that possible hormonal differences affected homosexual orientation. However, these studies were often directly contradictory, and never actually measured any hormone levels, but just used proxies for hormonal influences, without direct evidence that the proxies were actually indicative of true hormone levels or imbalances. Twin studies showed that there likely are genetic influences for homosexuality, although similar studies have shown some genetic influences for homophobia and even opposition to abortion. Early childhood abuse has been associated with homosexuality, but, at most, only explains about 10% of those who express a homosexual orientation. The fact that sexual orientation is not constant for many individuals, but can change over time suggests that at least part of sexual orientation is actually sexual preference. Attempts to find a "gay gene" have never identified any gene or gene product that is actually associated with homosexual orientation, with studies failing to confirm early suggestions of linkage of homosexuality to region Xq28 on the X chromosome. The question of genetic influences on sexual orientation could be definitively answered by using DNA microarray technology, although, to my knowledge, no such studies are planned or in progress."

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

I'm appalled too that transsexuality is thought to be an excepted practice and ordained of God!!


Have you gone mad?

Transsexuality is a condition, not a practice.
Also, cross-dressing is different. A man dressing up as a woman still identifies as male. A woman who happens to physically look like a male still identifies as female.
Aside from that, you have given no evidence otherwise.

How is t[r]ansexuality and homosexuality connected? Why do you think transsexuals are dressing up that way? To get a job at the Macy's woman's department?

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php? ... iscussion/
Hey, look, asexual transsexuals. Transsexuals transition generally due to dysphoria, physical and social. As stated before, TSes come in all sexual orientations, just as cissexuals do.

[Gay gene doesn't exist]

Great. It's not genetic. Except...wait, we already knew that. Yet studies have found pretty clear evidence in brain development and prenatal hormones.
Wait...how did homosexuality get in here again?

Wow there is so much speculation within this subject of a transsexual and for thee most part it is all measured by your own understanding and beliefs which is not too far from being a fool !!

Lets get some correct information within this post and then deal with your beliefs. Here is more truth then anything i have read in this thread !!

There are different reasons why some are born transsexual and yes BORN this way and i am going to try and get some truth into this thread come hell or high water ! giggle sheeesh.

We are all concieved as female and you might want to check into this before replying......around 8 weeks chemicals are released ( hormones ) and this is intended on telling the growing Fetus to begin to develope the secondary sexual characteristics which is known as the genitals and these do NOT determine Gender.

Now then this does Not always function in the way it was created to and there are many factors from Dr. perscibed meds to stress to chemicals in the food or animals we eat and sometimes things just happen and this goes along for any birth that leaves the child dealing with anything other then being normal.

Ok we are not even close to being done here so please keep reading.

There has been many test done or research within this area of a transsexual by the same leading medical comunities all over this world that discover all the other medical conditions and such but you can except these because it makes for an easier thing to believe then believing that transsexuals are real and not created out of sin etc.

One area discovered was the BSTc region of the brain which they know controls Gender and gender is why we feel male or female and not because we see one genital over the other.

Now then in this study they had several transsexuals both male and female and several normal males and females and some males that were being treated for testical and or prostrate cancer and hold on both gay males and females......its gonna get trippy here so listen up please.

They found that the male BSTc region was bigger then in the female.
Now then a male transexual or what they call f2m had the same size BSTc region as a normal male.
The female transsexual or m2f had the same size as a normal female.
So this does show that one is born this way BUT wait we are not even close to being done here.

The transsexuals that were the subjects had more to offer for several had taken hormones and some had not ever taken a thing and the BSTc region were the same.....YES the same so this also disproves that taking Hormones makes you a transsexual.........we are not done yet

Some of The males with cancer had been treated for this cancer and the meds taken mimic or have the same type of side effects as taking the hormones and those Men Had a normal male sized BSTc region and this also disproves that taking hormones makes one transsexual ~ they dont you are born this way.....

Hang on i got a little something else to boggle your mind......remember i said they also had several gay male and female subjecs, well here are the results found for them.

Gay female had the same size BSTc region as any other normal female
Gay male has the same size BSTc region as any normal male and sometimes a little larger.

This is but one known truth. So please do some research on your subjects before you cast judgement upon them.
Just searching the word of God for random scriptures to back your play or point is also right up there with a foolish person......
~J~

Human wrote: Transsexuality is a condition, not a practice.
Also, cross-dressing is different. A man dressing up as a woman still identifies as male. A woman who happens to physically look like a male still identifies as female.
Aside from that, you have given no evidence otherwise.

Transsexualism appears to be a learned behavior. Several studies have shown that male transsexual behavior are more likely to come from families where the mother is dominant and the father is weak or distant. Also if they were abused as a child by the parent.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/index.php? ... iscussion/
Hey, look, asexual transsexuals. Transsexuals transition generally due to dysphoria, physical and social. As stated before, TSes come in all sexual orientations, just as cissexuals do.

That gives more credence that it is a learned behavior. Fine by me..

[Gay gene doesn't exist]
Great. It's not genetic. Except...wait, we already knew that. Yet studies have found pretty clear evidence in brain development and prenatal hormones.
Wait...how did homosexuality get in here again?

It appears to be a "learned" behavior. But let's say that scientist someday do discover a "gay" or "transsexual" gene. Does that give them a license to that behavior? The answer is NO. All of us have desires we ought not to act on. You could argue that we were all born with an inclination to bad behavior but that certainly doesn't justify the behavior either. Like alcoholism, if someone was found to be genetically an alcoholic, does that justify them to be an alcoholic or that behavior? What about pedophilia and the likes? I think not....

Transsexualism appears to be a learned behavior. Several studies have shown that male transsexual behavior are more likely to come from families where the mother is dominant and the father is weak or distant. Also if they were abused as a child by the parent.

Read the post right above yours. Or go talk to transsexuals; many many were not abused and have very present fathers.
http://www.transsexual.org/What.html
You do understand one can be born a certain way without it being genetic? Prenatal and ureto-hormones have effects that last a lifetime.

That gives more credence that it is a learned behavior. Fine by me..

How? What path do you take from "A TS can have any sexual orientation" to "Transsexuality is a learned behaviour" (By the way, again, it is NOT A BEHAVIOR. It is' a <b>condition</b>. One cannot "do" transsexuality)

It appears to be a "learned" behavior. But let's say that scientist someday do discover a "gay" or "transsexual" gene. Does that give them a license to that behavior? The answer is NO. All of us have desires we ought not to act on. You could argue that we were all born with an inclination to bad behavior but that certainly doesn't justify the behavior either. Like alcoholism, if someone was found to be genetically an alcoholic, does that justify them to be an alcoholic or that behavior? What about pedophilia and the likes? I think not....

Okay, for the sake of the topic, I'm just going to ignore random insertations of the topic of homosexuality; the topic is not related and the connection you're making is imaginary. Plenty of TSes are heterosexual--shall we bring that into play as well?
Now, I've already <b>agreed</b> with you that it's not genetic. Scientists are finding it has everything to do with brain development in the womb.
There are even physical evidences; males and females have inherently different brain builds(along with a few other things determined by certain hormones rather than genes). Transmales and transfemales have respectively the same brain builds as their cis counterparts.
The issue then is dysphoria. Someone with a female brain will experience any intensity of both physical and social dysphoria from having a body that doesn't match and being treated the wrong way.
Now again, you say transsexuality is a bad behavior and again run into 2 issues.
1-It's not a behavior. Transitioning is, but that's just making things right.
2-You have proven in no way shape or form it is bad.

[rant alert]
Honestly, I must ask, are you even reading the posts opposed to yours and thinking for a moment or are you just blindly hating everything different from you? You're trying to read your own social norms into the Bible by making false attatchments. You have been told by three different people and several links now that transsexuality and homosexuality are unconnected, including by at least one transsexual. And before you answer with hostility, I *know* you aren't reading my posts by how you are fighting me on a point I clearly agreed on(not being genetic).
For someone who claims to follow a God of Love, who is love, I'm seeing a lot more hate than anything. Did Christ tell you and the rest of his church to go make life hell for others? I find it absolutely ridiculous how on the vast majority of cases I see more love coming from atheists(who have no "real" reason to love) than from Christians who believe they are COMMANDED to love. If your goal is to get people into the church, open arms work *much* better than a closed fist.
[/rant]