Is Christian zionism sound doctrine?

[B. W.]

We are made one ONLY if they are Christians. If they reject Christ, then they are not one with us, period.

That's the problem.. Some have been blinded, but we have to wait for them to realize this.. Romans 11:7

In other words, we were once blind and God waited for us to repent, now God asks us to be patient with them so that they will repent.. We have to hold their hands though it.

Be careful.

This is for you Gman --

Look at Romans 11:25 again and notice what it says...

Rom 11:25, "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;"

Next ask yourself - After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (Luke 21:24) who is left to be saved if the great commission is to be fulfilled? Those who were what – partially hardened – hmmm???

Read next two verse of Chapter 11... and find the answer…

Rom 11:26, "...and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27, "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

The Jews! All the living generation of Jews who are alive at that particular point in time will be saved - those Future era Jews I mentioned before...

Now look at Jeremiah 50:19, 20c

Jer 50:19, “But I will bring back Israel to his home, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan; His soul shall be satisfied on Mount Ephraim and Gilead.”

Notice that the Lord will bring back the Jewish people to their home...

Jer 50:20, “In those days and in that time," says the LORD, "The iniquity of Israel shall be sought, but there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, but they shall not be found; For I will pardon those whom I preserve."

Again, references all in some manner connect to Romans 11:25, 26, 27c

How will He pardon? … Notice how Matthew 24:30 and Rev 1:7 connect to the context of the above quoted verses as well as to the one below:

Zec 12:8, 9, 10c, "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

Who will save them at that time, when the time of Gentiles is complete, who will be left needing salvation? The Jews…and saved by whom….

Zep 3:16-17, "In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: "Do not fear; Zion, let not your hands be weak. 17 The LORD your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing."

Coming in the clouds…hummm what a sign and does not the bible mention how Jews seek after signs…

At some point in time after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, and the Jews are back in Israel as a full nation, hated by God’s enemies, in dire straits, who saves them as promised he would in the OT - personally? Hence…

"...and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." Romans 11:26-27

How? When they call upon him…see him

Will they become members of The Church or one people in, by, and of Christ - along with the rest of us? (Gal 3:28 - Eph 2:15 - Eph 3:6c)

Rom 11:24, "For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?"

Rom 11:16, 17, 18c, "For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you..."

Bible quotes from NKJV or NASB…
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[puritan lad]

We are made one ONLY if they are Christians. If they reject Christ, then they are not one with us, period.

That's the problem.. Some have been blinded, but we have to wait for them to realize this.. <A class=lbsBibleRef href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Romans%2011.7" target=_blank lbsReference="Romans 11.7|NASB">Romans 11:7</A>

In other words, we were once blind and God waited for us to repent, now God asks us to be patient with them so that they will repent.. We have to hold their hands through it.

Be careful.

We are to give them the gospel. Eventually many Jews will come to the faith, but they are not one with us in Christ unless and until they do so. We are to be patient with gentile unbelievers as well. But we aren't to hold unbelievers of any race up as being in any Covenant with God. There in only one gospel, one new covenant, and one mediator of that covenant. Nothing in that covenant applies to real estate on the Sinai Peninsula.

[Gman]

The Jews! All the living generation of Jews who are alive at that particular point in time will be saved - those Future era Jews I mentioned before...

Thanks Byran much clearer.. Makes sense..

But to make a distinction between the FtJews, do you mean the messianic Jews? What I hear from many is that we evangelize the remnant Jews who in turn become messianic Jews who thus becomes saved.

In other words, is it Christ coming in the clouds and then they get it OR is it we in Christ who evangelize them to Christ? They become messianic Jews and become saved before Christ comes back to earth..

[B. W.]

The Jews! All the living generation of Jews who are alive at that particular point in time will be saved - those Future era Jews I mentioned before...

Thanks Byran much clearer.. Makes sense..

But to make a distinction between the FtJews, do you mean the messianic Jews? What I hear from many is that we evangelize the remnant Jews who in turn become messianic Jews who thus becomes saved.

In other words, is it Christ coming in the clouds and then they get it OR is it we in Christ who evangelize them to Christ? They become messianic Jews and become saved before Christ comes back to earth..

The current Jews that come before Christ's physical return we now know as messianic Jews can probably tell you better than I can. They come to Christ like anyone else thru faith in Christ alone; thru our evangelizing them and they in turn their kinsman. They are part of the bigger plan of God for the development of a future living generation of Jews in Israel at the moment of Christ return (FtJ) to receive Christ when he comes. In fact, they are but another sign post that we may be closer to those days than we think. Roughly from about 200 AD till about 1960, it was very rare for a Jewish person even to come to Christ. From about 1960 to current date, a trickle and now a small stream come to Christ. This is part of God’s Plan.

The FtJ, according to the bible, will be evangelized by kinsmen first, two witnesses next thru a terrible time of trouble, and then, those who are left, by Christ Himself to fulfill the promises...
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[Gman]

They are part of the bigger plan of God for the development of a future living generation of Jews in Israel at the moment of Christ return (FtJ) to receive Christ when he comes. In fact, they are but another sign post that we may be closer to those days than we think.

Ok.. So the way you understand it is that the FtJs are the messianic Jews who will in turn be raptured? Jews who haven't accepted Christ will be left.?

The reason I'm asking this is that apparently all the Jews will see Christ in the clouds, and it is possible that then they will believe and accept Him as their savior at that time.. Some may, some may not.

But yes.. The non-Christian Jews are blind..

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

[Canuckster1127]

Whether anyone here is a preterist, a dispensationist, white, black, purple or pink, it still appears that we are to help the Jews...

Romans 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Now if that involves helping them build the temple is another question.. But we are there to help protect them...

I'm not sure that the context for the passage in Romans which was speaking of immediate monetary and material support of Jewish Believers (not non-believers) in Jerusalem can be extended out to remain a principle for all Jews since that time regardless of connection to the body of Christ. Not saying it isn't a noble thought. It just strikes me as reading more into the context of the passage and the direct appeal of Paul to the believers in Rome on behalf of the believers in Jerusalem wher the majority of those believers were in fact Jewish.

[Gman]

Whether anyone here is a preterist, a dispensationist, white, black, purple or pink, it still appears that we are to help the Jews...

Romans 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Now if that involves helping them build the temple is another question.. But we are there to help protect them...

I'm not sure that the context for the passage in Romans which was speaking of immediate monetary and material support of Jewish Believers (not non-believers) in Jerusalem can be extended out to remain a principle for all Jews since that time regardless of connection to the body of Christ. Not saying it isn't a noble thought. It just strikes me as reading more into the context of the passage and the direct appeal of Paul to the believers in Rome on behalf of the believers in Jerusalem wher the majority of those believers were in fact Jewish.

Yes, confusing.. But in Romans 11:5 it talks about a Jewish remnant that are not under Christ (blinded) but are still under grace Romans 11:6. Many messianic Jews use this verse Romans 15:27 in support of the Jewish Zionist cause... When I say messianic, I mean Christian Jews not the non-believing (in Christ) Jews.

The other pat of the problem here is that should we as Christians be supporting the Jewish Zionist cause (which surely would involve the temple mount) if we know it will be over run by satan? Supporting the Jewish OT ways without Christ seems invalid.. It seems contradictory...

That is one of the reasons why I raised this post in the first place...

[Gman]

Case in point here folks.. The Jewish Zionist movement, or their plight to Israel, was actually started by the.... Well.. The Christian Zionists under the British mandate. Are we aware of that?

[B. W.]

They are part of the bigger plan of God for the development of a future living generation of Jews in Israel at the moment of Christ return (FtJ) to receive Christ when he comes. In fact, they are but another sign post that we may be closer to those days than we think.

Ok.. So the way you understand it is that the FtJs are the messianic Jews who will in turn be raptured? Jews who haven't accepted Christ will be left.?

The reason I'm asking this is that apparently all the Jews will see Christ in the clouds, and it is possible that then they will believe and accept Him as their savior at that time.. Some may, some may not.

But yes.. The non-Christian Jews are blind..

Romans 9:30-32 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Interesting question and there is no way to answer it due to people’s views on the subject of the rapture. The thread here will go off in many directions. Some of the FtJ will be believers in Christ before Christ comes, the two witnesses involved in evangelism will be saving many adding to the number, and any non believing Jews who are left alive after a harsh invasion, etc, according to the bible will see the Lord coming and believe on Him then.

As for the rapture occurring before, during, or after the harsh times coming it is up to the Lord whom he raptures or not, is it not? If there is a purpose to leave certain people behind, (pre-or mid trib) then there is a reason for it, to bear witness for Christ (those coming out of the harsh times). If then it happens after the harsh times, then I do not think it matters much.

Bible speaks clearly there will be a rapture event in the OT and the NT but its time, is unknown for now. People can make a great case for it happening before the trib, or during it as well, and for it to be afterwards a good case can also be made. This is an area one needs to wrestle with the Lord with. I have and still wrestling with this one for about 26 years, my findings for now, I’ll keep to myself, still waiting - like many others

Next, Yes aware that christian zionists under the British mandate along with Jews began seeking for a return at a certian time last century. Is God in control of things or not? If he did not want this to happen, then it would not have. Had to start somewhere for a certian time forth coming known only to God himself.
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[Canuckster1127]

Yes, confusing.. But in Romans 11:5 it talks about a Jewish remnant that are not under Christ (blinded) but are still under grace Romans 11:6. Many messianic Jews use this verse Romans 15:27 in support of the Jewish Zionist cause... When I say messianic, I mean Christian Jews not the non-believing (in Christ) Jews.

The other pat of the problem here is that should we as Christians be supporting the Jewish Zionist cause (which surely would involve the temple mount) if we know it will be over run by satan? Supporting the Jewish OT ways without Christ seems invalid.. It seems contradictory...

That is one of the reasons why I raised this post in the first place...

Yes but Romans 11:5 is in the body of the letter and Romans 15:27 is in the closing where he's passing on greetings and body needs and speaking of his next travels.

It's somewhat similar I think to what people sometimes do with III John 2. A simple greeting from John that is pretty much the same as us writing to someone "Hi I hope you're doing well and healthy," becomes a promise from God to give us whatever we want. All the Bible is inspired but not all the Bible is speaking directly to us.

[Gman]

Yes but Romans 11:5 is in the body of the letter and Romans 15:27 is in the closing where he's passing on greetings and body needs and speaking of his next travels.

It's somewhat similar I think to what people sometimes do with III John 2. A simple greeting from John that is pretty much the same as us writing to someone "Hi I hope you're doing well and healthy," becomes a promise from God to give us whatever we want. All the Bible is inspired but not all the Bible is speaking directly to us.

Yes.. I can see where someone could take that out of context. The next question would be does that verse pertain to the messianic Jews or the non-Christian Jews..

Again, just raising questions here..

[Canuckster1127]

Yes but Romans 11:5 is in the body of the letter and Romans 15:27 is in the closing where he's passing on greetings and body needs and speaking of his next travels.

It's somewhat similar I think to what people sometimes do with III John 2. A simple greeting from John that is pretty much the same as us writing to someone "Hi I hope you're doing well and healthy," becomes a promise from God to give us whatever we want. All the Bible is inspired but not all the Bible is speaking directly to us.

Yes.. I can see where someone could take that out of context. The next question would be is that verse pertain to the messianic Jews or the non-Christian Jews..

Again, just raising questions here..

Read the whole passage.

Rom 15:22 For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you;

23 but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you

24 whenever I go to Spain—for I hope to see you in passing, and to be helped on my way there by you, when I have first enjoyed your company for a while—

25 but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

26 For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

27 Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

28 Therefore, when I have finished this, and have put my seal on this fruit of theirs, I will go on by way of you to Spain.

Seems pretty clear to me. Paul is closing his letter (Chapter 16 is an extension after the original closing) and he's saying "I miss you and want to see you but circumstances have kept me from coming. I hope to go to Spain sometime, and when I do, I'll come to see you and receive any help you want to give me and just spend some time enjoying your company. But now, I'm going to Jerusalem and taking a gift to them from the church in Macedonia and Achaia, who want to help the poor believers there. They really are glad to help because the Church in Jerusalem has blessed them with the Spiritual things that God and Christ showed them and it seems right that they help them at least in the midst of their physical needs now. So when I've finished that trip and passed on that gift than I plan to head to Spain and come and see you in Rome."

So, the use of the word saints says yes, these are believers in Jerusalem, not the Jewish nation in general. Attempting to draw more than that from this passage is pretty shaky ground in my opinion.

[B. W.]

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Geeze with two of these forms going, not even sure if this is the right post for the right thread! So if it is out of place - oh well - it can work here too
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Hi Gman, the question has been posed to Messianic Jews regarding if their people can be saved by some other means and the answer according to them would be – Yes and No.

No in that they need to come to Christ like everyone else does.

And Yes, that the OT reveals Christ and from it, revelation can come and one can believe in him from the OT names used for God.

Both depend on divine revelation, opening of the eyes, by grace. Proof would be those OT people in the part of Sheol know as Paradise that Jesus went to and led to heaven. That was both an example of grace and divine intervention.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him what? Who did he believe in? God wasn’t it? In the OT, the way the names and titles are used of God show forth the Divine Trinity of one God in three persons, thus fulfilling God’s own statement about himself as there being NONE like him and that he is incomprehensible. So by reading the OT the Lord can show them that Jesus spoke to Abraham and thus Abraham believed on Christ.

Likewise, Moses spoke with Jesus often as Jesus identified himself as the I AM in one passage. So, by reading the OT the Lord most certainly can lead a Jew to saving knowledge in Christ thru the uses of the names / titles for God used in the OT. Divine revelation of who he is. He may however use the OT name to call upon the Lord such as Yahweh, Elohim, Malak Yahweh, El Shaddai, I AM, as Jesus used in his pre-incarnate state, and thus be saved by the convention of the NT. No violation to it at all. Those who call on the Name of Yahweh shall be Saved...

So it is possible for a Jew, thru God’s divine intervention, come to saving faith in Christ, through Grace by reading the OT.

Next,

How long ago was the book of Romans written? What day and time is it now? Things change, The Jews have only a partial hardening, not a full hardening and this partial is slowly being removed today. So everyone please be careful what you say about God’s chosen people. There is more Law oriented in reading that they are enemies from rom 11 but that was how long ago after how much time has passed? Time of the Gentiles just well maybe in the closing stages – what then?

The use of the word enemies was a poor choice for a translated word to use in the context of all Rom 11.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies (antagonistic/hostile) for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

We we all at one time enemies of God?

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?
Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

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[Gman]

Yes same post.. Makes sense to me..

Where did you come up with that??? It's simply an amazing read..

Ok I'm blinded now.. Blinded by the light of Christ. Ask and you shall receive..

[Gman]

So, the use of the word saints says yes, these are believers in Jerusalem, not the Jewish nation in general. Attempting to draw more than that from this passage is pretty shaky ground in my opinion.

Yes.. Technically you could argue that Bart. However in lieu of the progression of scripture, in this case the restoration of Israel, there does seem to be a certain, shall we say respect for these non-Christian Jews if it is from God. That is all I'm saying here..