Evidence for God from Science

zoegirl wrote:see, I don't understand how this can be reconciled with scripture, with the rest of the Bible. The law does not bring salvation, it only serves to reveal our need for salvation. CHrist was the ultimate atoning sacrifice for us...to add anything to this or take away His sacrifice by some element of other sacrifice that would serve to reconcile anyone to God does seem very dangerous indeed.

Yes.. I stated that before that the law or Torah cannot bring salvation but rather sanctification which is a process used in Christianity. So while we accept Christ, what does it mean? That is where the law comes in, to understand God's love, not that we obtain it any more than obeying traffic lights at street intersections. We all break the law.. Therefore comes grace. But yes, to take away from Christ's sacrifice is dangerous indeed if not demonic.

zoegirl wrote:

At least this is how I understand it. In other words, the Jewish remnant in the mechanics or law or stem in grace to Jews, the Christians are the love or branches/leaf collectors that nourish the stem in grace to the Gentiles. In other words, God is compromising to have both groups function, but function as a unit (like in a marriage) under Hebraic law. This will produce the "one" man, which in turn morphs into Christ..

see, I don't understand how this can be reconciled with scripture, with the rest of the Bible. The law does not bring salvation, it only serves to reveal our need for salvation. CHrist was the ultimate atoning sacrifice for us...to add anything to this or take away His sacrifice by some element of other sacrifice that would serve to reconcile anyone to God does seem very dangerous indeed.

You are right Zoe - the law brings to light the knowledge of sin...

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

With that, we can come together thru Christ...

Jews forcing Christians to act and become like Jews or Christians forcing Jews to act and become like Christians - misses the program - and people keep rolling these stones and boulders across each other’s path. You got be like and become as...are stones that tear and keep apart all God's people apart. However, when the focus is on Christ, things change.

Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ by Christ... It is becoming one, together, in Christ as the both OT and NT teaches that matters. Gentile believers are under no obligation to do and behave Jewish and likewise Jewish believers are under no obligation to do and behave like Christians either. It is when both sides look to Christ is how we are made one, together, and how we stay together, one in Christ.

Do we belong to the Church or to Christ?

From Preterist camps, all I hear is, we belong to the church and Jews must join the church, or else. Are we Christ’s possession? Or a Church’s possession? When we’ve become possessed by a Church, things get dicey. Inhabited by Christ through the Holy Spirit is another matter altogether. Again, do we belong to a Church or belong to Christ?

Re-read the tones and comments about the Jewish people on this thread - Love?? Really???

From whom shows forth compassion for God's own promises made to the Jewish people on this thread?

Whom seeks to really force conformity?

When Jacob and the master plan for the alter was made, did God desire uniform bricks, shaped by man – or uncut stones, uniquely fitted together according to the unity He Himself brings?
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My understanding is that there is a Jewish remnant that functions under God's grace without Christ Romans 11:5-6. How it functions I'm not entirely sure, because no there is not atonement for sin. However, it is possible that once the Temple sacrifices start up again, it could get the spiritual wheel moving again so to speak. I don't know... So what happens is that God wants the Gentiles to be grafted into this spiritual wheel which will then usher in the messiah Romans 11:17-21.

But again, here you are saying that there is another way to God without Christ. Why even contemplate this?!?!

I'm not debating the grafting idea...I understand that idea, but this idea that animal sacrifices would again be used and accepted as reconciliation....??

ew and Gentile are made one in Christ by Christ... It is becoming one, together, in Christ as the both OT and NT teaches that matters. Gentile believers are under no obligation to do and behave Jewish and likewise Jewish believers are under no obligation to do and behave like Christians either. It is when both sides look to Christ is how we are made one, together, and how we stay together, one in Christ.

THis is alarming to me because it sounds again as if there are two pathways to God...the Christian way and the Jewish way as if they are exempt from needing atonement from Christ.

From Preterist camps, all I hear is, we belong to the church and Jews must join the church, or else. Are we Christ’s possession? Or a Church’s possession? When we’ve become possessed by a Church, things get dicey. Inhabited by Christ through the Holy Spirit is another. Again, do we belong to a Church or belong to Christ?

It is Christ's church...of course, and no one is saying otherwise, but we are the church because we are Christians and we are Christians because we accept Christ....ALL nations and ANYBODY who accepts Christ is part of the church, right?!?!?

HOW IS ANYONE RECONCILED TO GOD???

Re-read the tones and comments about the Jewish people on this thread - Love?? Really???

Whoa, Whoa...no one is denying love....if fact, what seems scary is that this seems to be offering false hope in declaring that anything OTHER than Christ is acceptable. Are you somehow implying anti-semitism? I sure hope not!

Please understand that I am coming at this truly confused....I am merely trying to pin down the difference between "the Jewish nation will be restored" and "they are separate from the church" and knowing from scripture that Christ is the only way to salvation.

When the bible says people come to him from all nations, kinderds, languages, funny how the Jews are so often excluded from this list. But what does the bible say:

Gal 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God

Rom 12:4-5 - For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

Eph 1:9-10 - having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

1 John 3:23 - And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

John 17:21-23 - ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. NKJV

Are we made one with Christ by the Church or by Christ himself?
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BW I am in no way denying this....please see the quotes I have quoted from you guys and help me understand this. I am absolutely certain that all nations will be represented but the quotes from you guys imply that there is another way for the Jewish nation.

zoegirl wrote:But again, here you are saying that there is another way to God without Christ. Why even contemplate this?!?!

I don't believe anyone here is saying there is another way besides Christ. What I see here is a blindness as described in Romans 11..

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

But did this group of hard headed Jews fall beyond recovery? Apparently not.. Rather their hardness came because they were jealous of the Gentiles. After all they obtained salvation with no works.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

But there does appear to be a remnant chosen by grace.. If it is chosen by God, then it cannot be acquired by just anybody...

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

How they get it I'm not entirely sure. But Jews in the OT were also justified by faith. As PL stated below.. Therefore, is this remnant able to survive by grace because they flat out rejected Christ or did their hearts get hardened? I would assume that they are blind or hardened as mentioned in Romans 11:7 and Romans 11:25. The other question is it a saving grace? I don't know..

"By faith Abel..."(Hebrews 11:4)
"By faith Enoch..."(Hebrews 11:5)
"By faith Noah.."((Hebrews 11:6), being warned by God concerning events as "By faith Abraham..."(Hebrews 11:8) obeyed when he was called to go out to "By faith Sarah..."(Hebrews 11:11) herself received power to conceive, even
"By faith Isaac..."(Hebrews 11:20)
"By faith Jacob...(Hebrews 11:21)
"By faith Joseph...(Hebrews 11:22)
"By faith Moses..."(Hebrews 11:23-24, Hebrews 11:24)
"By faith Rahab..."(Hebrews 11:31)

zoegirl wrote:I'm not debating the grafting idea...I understand that idea, but this idea that animal sacrifices would again be used and accepted as reconciliation....??

Yes however as the story goes there will be animal sacrifices again in the millennial temple or reign, Is 56:7; 66:20-23; Jer 33:18, Zech 14:16-21, Mal 3:3-4. However these sacrifices are only reminders of His work on the cross. Again the way I see it is that these Jewish believers are functioning in blindness or jealousy, not a refusal.. Therefore God could still be honoring their sacrifices temporarily until the fullness of the gentiles comes.. Then when they come to Christ, it stops..

I just don't know... Again I'm not saying this is the way it is. This is just what I see...

B. W. wrote:
Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ by Christ... It is becoming one, together, in Christ as the both OT and NT teaches that matters. Gentile believers are under no obligation to do and behave Jewish and likewise Jewish believers are under no obligation to do and behave like Christians either. It is when both sides look to Christ is how we are made one, together, and how we stay together, one in Christ.

Do we belong to the Church or to Christ?

From Preterist camps, all I hear is, we belong to the church and Jews must join the church, or else. Are we Christ’s possession? Or a Church’s possession? When we’ve become possessed by a Church, things get dicey. Inhabited by Christ through the Holy Spirit is another matter altogether. Again, do we belong to a Church or belong to Christ?

Re-read the tones and comments about the Jewish people on this thread - Love?? Really???

From whom shows forth compassion for God's own promises made to the Jewish people on this thread?

Whom seeks to really force conformity?

When Jacob and the master plan for the alter was made, did God desire uniform bricks, shaped by man – or uncut stones, uniquely fitted together according to the unity He Himself brings?
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Yup... I believe that sums it up pretty well...

Are we having fun here guys? I know I am.. Let's just not take things personal here...

I don't know...it just seems such an anathema to me to even think that there will be sacrifices or that these will be of any use. Christ is the final sacrifice...there is no other need for other sacrifices, He is the blood shed for us. To even use sacrifices as a reminder seems dangerous...after all, communion is to serve as our reminder that Christ's body and blood were for atonement. He is the innocent lamb, the scapegoat....

Whether or not there is still grace to the remnant here on earth, ie protection or favor, I just want to clear up any idea of there being grace extended without Christ with regard to salvation. Hearts being hardened or blinded aside, whatever must occur to bring this remnant back to Him must include Christ, NOT the law.

But there does appear to be a remnant chosen by grace.. If it is chosen by God, then it cannot be acquired by just anybody...

please elaborate on this....is this a reference to God's grace extended to become believers (which is extended to anybody of God's choosing...if talking about God choosing)? Oris this some type of grace extended outside of Christ.

When I read through the OT, the idea of sacrifice, atonement, passover, etc is so prevalent, so ingrained throughout the feasts and the tradition of the Jews, it hardly is a stretch to understand that the faith they had (that was credited to them as righteousness) was in a redeemer, an advocate...even in the story of Isaac being led to sacrifice there is a faith that God would provide a lamb. That imagery pervades the OT...they had a faith is a redemption

zoegirl wrote:I don't know...it just seems such an anathema to me to even think that there will be sacrifices or that these will be of any use. Christ is the final sacrifice...there is no other need for other sacrifices, He is the blood shed for us. To even use sacrifices as a reminder seems dangerous...after all, communion is to serve as our reminder that Christ's body and blood were for atonement. He is the innocent lamb, the scapegoat....

Absolutely, Christ IS the final sacrifice.. But from what Paul seems to be stating here in Romans 11:25 is that we have a group of hard headed Jews that are blind to this truth and are still functioning in grace under the OT laws, and God seems to be patient with it for now... Until when I don't know, but I think when Christ returns it will be corrected.. Or maybe before He comes they will come to their senses? Don't know..

zoegirl wrote:Whether or not there is still grace to the remnant here on earth, ie protection or favor, I just want to clear up any idea of there being grace extended without Christ with regard to salvation. Hearts being hardened or blinded aside, whatever must occur to bring this remnant back to Him must include Christ, NOT the law.

please elaborate on this....is this a reference to God's grace extended to become believers (which is extended to anybody of God's choosing...if talking about God choosing)? Oris this some type of grace extended outside of Christ.

Yes, no one can obtain grace by observing the law.. We know that.. So apparently this remnant is functioning via grace even though they have law. I don't think it is extended however, I think it is just ignorance.. However I think God is honoring it for the time being. A temporary thing...

The way I see it, you have a child and you tell him the way out of the house, but then he wants to do it himself. Why? Becuase he is stubborn.. So he goes to the kitchen, then bumps into the bathroom, but then finally comes to his scenes and asks the way out. In other words, the parent is just being patient with the child..

According to B.W's article..

Only after the Jewish people cry out, Baruch habah b'shem Adonai in reference to the true Messiah, Jesus, will Israel be saved during this period of Great Tribulation (Matt. 23:29; Luke 13:35). Then shall the prophecy of Zechariah be fulfilled: "I will pour out upon the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn" (Zech. 12:10).

I forgot a piece here. Here is where they are receiving grace, not of works or sacrifices, but on the account of their forefathers..

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Ok that makes sense.. God won't break those promises. Even though they are enemies of the Gospel..

God's promises are irrevocable Romans 11:29.. In other words, LOCKED.

So there is a remnant of Jews saved under God's grace under the account of the patriarchs.. That is why they are there, not works but rather a PROMISE, even though they are enemies of the Gospel..

In other words. God is not LEGALISTIC..

Hey.. Maybe I should read my own writing sometimes...

Duh..

what grace are they receiving?

zoegirl wrote:what grace are they receiving?

God's grace.. Due to a promise he made to the patriarchs. In other words, they can screw up and God still has to honor them. He locked it.... WOW.

Gman wrote:

zoegirl wrote:what grace are they receiving?

God's grace.. Due to a promise he made to the patriarchs. In other words, they can screw up and God still has to honor them. He locked it.... WOW.

i guess I was meaning the role of this grace...I'm still hung up on what part this plays...are we talking protection, blessings? or grace as in the grace extended to sinners for reconciliation

I'm assuming you are meaning the former...just clarifying