Evidence for God from Science

puritan lad:

First off, I don't want to interrupt B.W. and jlay's discourse with you, so when you find the time, would you please address these questions?

1. What was the purpose of the 490 year prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27?

puritan lad wrote:
Daniel 9 makes no mention of antichrist or a millennial kingdom. And if it hasn't been completed yet, then Daniel was a false prophet, since the 490 years have already passed. It was Christ who comfirmed the covenant with many (Matthew 26:28), identified the Abomination of Desolation as the Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans (Compare Matthew 24:15-21 with Luke 21:20-24), and is the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary". Therefore, since Daniel 9 has been fulfilled, then vision and prophecy has been sealed up.

2. If there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week, what allows you to expand the 70th week to begin at the "Last Supper" (Matt 26:28) and end in 70AD (actually it should be 73-74AD because the A of D happens 3 1/2 years before the end of the 70th week)?

3. How can Christ be the prince who "came shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" when the prophecy states that it is the "people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary"?(Dan 9:26 NASU)

4. You distinguished between Jesus coming in the clouds and His second advent.

puritan lad wrote:Christ's "coming in the clouds" was not a literal Advent, and clearly happened in the First Century (see Matthew 10:23, Matthew 16:27-28, Matthew 24:30-34). In fact, God's "cloud coming" judgments happen throughout the Bible - See Isaiah's Prophecy against Egypt in 730 BC (Isaiah 19:1) and Jeremiah's Prophecy against Jerusalem in 620 BC (Jeremiah 4:13). The Second Advent is a different scenario altogether, when he comes is the same manner in which he left (Acts 1:11), and history comes to an end (2 Peter 3:10).

You used Acts 1:11 as a second advent scripture but it more accurately describes a "coming in the clouds" event. In the context of Acts 1:9,10,11, it sounds like Matt 24:30.

You used 2 Peter 3:10 to show that "history comes to an end." In the context of verse 3 through verse 13, Peter says that in the last days mockers will come and then tells his audience to look for the day of God and puts himself in the middle of it by saying, "(w)e are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

2Peter 3:3-13:
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
NASU

The above passage is a very good description of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted in Acts 2:17-21:

17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
NASU

But you said that Peter said that the day of the Lord was fulfilled on Pentecost.

puritan lad wrote:

At no point did Peter suggest that any portion of Joel's prophecy would NOT wait another 2,000 years to see it's fulfillment.

Yes he did. He clearly said that the entire prophecy was being fulfilled before their eyes on the Day of Pentecost. Read Acts 2:16 over and over a few times and then justify the above quote.

5. How many "last days" and "Days of the Lord" are there?

6. Are there any other scriptures that speak of Jesus' second advent?

7. I'm not sure of the wording in Matt 10:23, so I'll ask my question this way: Could Jesus have known that all His disciples would be dead before they finished going throughout Israel that allowed Him to state Matt 10:23 the way He did?

8. How does the "end of the age" in Dan. 12:13 compare to the "end of the age" in Matt. 24:3?

Nice questions there 1harpazo.... I'd like to know that too.

Three questions for you 1harpazo...

In Matthew 23:33-35 Jesus spoke this to the scribes and Pharisees standing nearby:

Mat 23:29, 33-35, "29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous...Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."

First Question - how old were the scribes and Pharisees standing nearby as that generation mentioned in Matt 23:36 and Matt 24:34 since some were alive since the days of Able and Zechariah?

Second Question: Is there a relationship between the generation spoke of in Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 23:39?

Mat 23:36-39, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!”

Third question: how could the 70 AD generation really say 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD” and remain forsaken abandoned by God since the principle in Romans 10:13 is at play?
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B. W. wrote:Three questions for you 1harpazo...

In Matthew 23:33-35 Jesus spoke this to the scribes and Pharisees standing nearby:

Mat 23:29, 33-35, "29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous...Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."

First Question - how old were the scribes and Pharisees standing nearby as that generation mentioned in Matt 23:36 and Matt 24:34 since some were alive since the days of Able and Zechariah?

Second Question: Is there a relationship between the generation spoke of in Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 23:39?

Mat 23:36-39, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!”

Third question: how could the 70 AD generation really say 'BLESSED is HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD” and remain forsaken abandoned by God since the principle in Romans 10:13 is at play?
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First of all, I'm kind of curious, why did you skip Matt 23:30,31,32? My answer is based on those verses. The pharisees evidently admitted that their forefathers murdered the prophets including Zechariah by saying that they (the pharisees) would not have been partners with the murderers had they been living in that day. Jesus told the pharisees that their forefathers were guilty of shedding innocent blood from Abel to Zechariah (a generational sin?). Jesus said that He was going to send prophets, wise men and scribes who would be persecuted, scourged and/or killed by the present generation. The pharisees being leaders of the people and therefore the generation would continue the generational sin of shedding innocent blood.

My answer to the first part question #1 is the scribes and pharisees and therefore the people were contemporaries of Jesus. In Matt 23:36 the current generation that Jesus was speaking to right then would suffer the seven woes that go all the way back to Matt 23:13.

An aside: The audience of Matt 23:29-36 (Matt 23:13-36) are Jesus' detractors-the doubters and ungodly. The audience of Matt 24:34 (Matt 24:1-51) is Jesus' disciples (in a PRIVATE session with Jesus).

In the Matt 24:34 passage, I believe that the generation in which "all these things take place" (Matt 24:4-33) is the generation that will see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (not just a desolation) that is spoken of through Daniel the prophet and is perpetrated by the prince (the anti-christ) who inaugurates the 70th week of Daniel. This is the same generation who will witness the greatest tribulation (global persecution of the church), the sign of the end of the age (total global darkness) and the sign of the Son of Man coming (God's glory illuminating the entire earth all at once).

My answer to the second part of question #1 is not the generation that Jesus is speaking to, but the generation who will be alive at the time that Daniel's 70th week takes place (still yet to come, but very, very close).

My stab at question #2: The relationship is doubt and unbelief of or refusal to accept the prophets right up to the prophet. Because this generation refused to believe and accept Jesus, God was going to remove His glory (His dealing with Israel) from their house (ichabod) until the generation that witnesses the coming of their Messiah Nagid. "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" refers to the prophecy in Psalm 118 (especially verse 26). In Matt 23:37-39, Jesus prophesies over Jerusalem (nation of Israel?) and says that because Jerusalem (the people of that day) refused to receive Him, God stops dealing with Israel until Jerusalem (the people present at His kingly coming) recognize that Jesus is their King and Messiah at the end of the 70th week.

My answer to question #3: I don't believe that Jerusalem (the nation of Israel corporately) in 70AD could say,"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" because that phrase refers to the coming of their Messiah the Prince and allegedly Jesus returned to judge Israel then. However, about calling on the name of the Lord for salvation by individuals is the same then as it is now.

1harpazo wrote:First of all, I'm kind of curious, why did you skip Matt 23:30,31,32? My answer is based on those verses. The Pharisees evidently admitted that their forefathers murdered the prophets including Zechariah by saying that they (the Pharisees) would not have been partners with the murderers had they been living in that day. Jesus told the Pharisees that their forefathers were guilty of shedding innocent blood from Abel to Zechariah (a generational sin?). Jesus said that He was going to send prophets, wise men and scribes who would be persecuted, scourged and/or killed by the present generation. The Pharisees being leaders of the people and therefore the generation would continue the generational sin of shedding innocent blood.

My answer to the first part question #1 is the scribes and Pharisees and therefore the people were contemporaries of Jesus. In Matt 23:36 the current generation that Jesus was speaking to right then would suffer the seven woes that go all the way back to Matt 23:13. An aside: The audience of Matt 23:29-36 (Matt 23:13-36) are Jesus' detractors-the doubters and ungodly. The audience of Matt 24:34 (Matt 24:1-51) is Jesus' disciples (in a PRIVATE session with Jesus).

In the Matt 24:34 passage, I believe that the generation in which "all these things take place" (Matt 24:4-33) is the generation that will see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (not just a desolation) that is spoken of through Daniel the prophet and is perpetrated by the prince (the anti-christ) who inaugurates the 70th week of Daniel. This is the same generation who will witness the greatest tribulation (global persecution of the church), the sign of the end of the age (total global darkness) and the sign of the Son of Man coming (God's glory illuminating the entire earth all at once).

My answer to the second part of question #1 is not the generation that Jesus is speaking to, but the generation who will be alive at the time that Daniel's 70th week takes place (still yet to come, but very, very close).

My stab at question #2: The relationship is doubt and unbelief of or refusal to accept the prophets right up to the prophet. Because this generation refused to believe and accept Jesus, God was going to remove His glory (His dealing with Israel) from their house (ichabod) until the generation that witnesses the coming of their Messiah Nagid. "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" refers to the prophecy in Psalm 118 (especially verse 26). In Matt 23:37-39, Jesus prophesies over Jerusalem (nation of Israel?) and says that because Jerusalem (the people of that day) refused to receive Him, God stops dealing with Israel until Jerusalem (the people present at His kingly coming) recognize that Jesus is their King and Messiah at the end of the 70th week.

My answer to question #3: I don't believe that Jerusalem (the nation of Israel corporately) in 70AD could say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" because that phrase refers to the coming of their Messiah the Prince and allegedly Jesus returned to judge Israel then. However, about calling on the name of the Lord for salvation by individuals is the same then as it is now.

The reason for all three questions was to show how the word translated ‘generation’ in Matthew 24:34 is not limited to only mean those standing around hearing Jesus because this word has a broader application than cementing the events of 70 AD to a Preterist viewpoint. Mat 23:36 does not lock in the meaning of generation to only those standing there as the verses I left out (Mat 23:30, 31, 32c) illustrate pointing out that Mat 23:39 points to a future generation, residing in Israel. As those standing there were related to those who killed the prophets of old - so shall a future generation be related when Jesus returns.

The generation that Jesus is speaking to refers to all who will be alive at the time when Daniel's 70th week takes place, when Israel (the Jewish people) look upon the one whom they pierced when Jesus actually arrives back on earth. Jesus will bring along those who have passed on as well and they’ll see this event as well too as 1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c mentions.

My main point of these question was to show that he use of generation is not limited to only those that heard and the 70 AD generation but refers to a future generation at the time the events Jesus described happen.

Below Link is a good article from the John Annkerberg wiki site on this very subject touching upon all points made so far on this subject…

http://www.jashow.org/wiki/index.php/Ar ... st_Days%3F

From this and your presentation 1harpazo, I think it pretty well establishes that the preterist position is untenable concerning the word generation used in Mat 24.
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B.W.-

I'm glad that I could help out, but you pretty much carried the load. I am more blessed that God is using apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:12-16, NASU). You are getting us there.

1harpazo wrote:B.W.-

I'm glad that I could help out, but you pretty much carried the load. I am more blessed that God is using apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers "for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love." (Eph. 4:12-16, NASU). You are getting us there.

And thank you Harpazo1 for clarifying things much better than I did and bringing the topic into better focus! Your line of questioning was superb!

Any other points you would lie to bring up concerning Preterism?
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B. W. wrote: Any other points you would lie to bring up concerning Preterism?
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I do have one item that puzzles me. If the "great and glorious return of Jesus Christ" occurred before 70AD, what is the ultimate hope or goal for preterists?

1harpazo wrote:

B. W. wrote: Any other points you would lie to bring up concerning Preterism?

I do have one item that puzzles me. If the "great and glorious return of Jesus Christ" occurred before 70AD, what is the ultimate hope or goal for preterists?

That puzzles me too. Do you have any insight as to why this is?
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B. W. wrote:

1harpazo wrote:

B. W. wrote: Any other points you would lie to bring up concerning Preterism?

I do have one item that puzzles me. If the "great and glorious return of Jesus Christ" occurred before 70AD, what is the ultimate hope or goal for preterists?

That puzzles me too. Do you have any insight as to why this is?
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Two thoughts:

1. If Matthew 24 is history, then preterists don't have to deal with the unpleasantness associated with the tribulation, great tribulation and Antichrist?
2. Since, to the preterists, the church is Israel, the church reaps all the blessings that God promised to Israel?

I probably missed it by a long ways, but I'm trying to think from a human perspective. Can you help a brother out?