Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote: Goes to show that people have faith and what they place their faith in reveals whom they trust – their own ability to have God dance and perform to their tunes, or naturalism, or secularism, or place faith in the Lord of Host by means of absolute surrender to him to avoid the wrath to come.
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BW, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I just wanted to comment. I don't know if I would say 'in order to avoid the wrath'. While that certainly helps to drive many people to God in the first place, myself included, I've come to view it a little differently now that I'm "in the door" so to speak.

I don't view God as a person who wants us to come to him out of terror. While he may use that method for the hardened/stubborn, I really cling tight to the 'abba' imagery that Paul painted. I've come to realize, and I do believe the HS guides opinions if you ask, that God isn't the ruler who wants you to obey him or else. When I try to 'see' God so to speak, I see this: a little kid running to hug his Dad's leg when he get's home, a Father working on a pinewood derby car LONG after the kid fell asleep, a Father who gave his kid advice on how to avoid a bunch of stupid mistakes, and a Father who's greatest joy in the world is to hear the words "I love you" in return.

Having said that, I do feel that God warns us of the consequences will be for someone who has spent a lifetime choosing to separate themselves from that love. However, I think God would much rather show an unbeliever kindness first in the hopes that the unbeliever would see those outstretched arms, and want a hug.

just jumping in,

Having said that, I do feel that God warns us of the consequences will be for someone who has spent a lifetime choosing to separate themselves from that love. However, I think God would much rather show an unbeliever kindness first in the hopes that the unbeliever would see those outstretched arms, and want a hug.

Most of the time he does but the unbeliever feels that warm feeling for a second and then rejects it as an illusion. Without faith they can't come to God and with faith they would not see it an objection. It is almost a paradox

Orwell put it this way
"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious"

jestes wrote:

B. W. wrote: Goes to show that people have faith and what they place their faith in reveals whom they trust – their own ability to have God dance and perform to their tunes, or naturalism, or secularism, or place faith in the Lord of Host by means of absolute surrender to him to avoid the wrath to come.
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BW, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I just wanted to comment. I don't know if I would say 'in order to avoid the wrath'. While that certainly helps to drive many people to God in the first place, myself included, I've come to view it a little differently now that I'm "in the door" so to speak.

I don't view God as a person who wants us to come to him out of terror. While he may use that method for the hardened/stubborn, I really cling tight to the 'abba' imagery that Paul painted. I've come to realize, and I do believe the HS guides opinions if you ask, that God isn't the ruler who wants you to obey him or else. When I try to 'see' God so to speak, I see this: a little kid running to hug his Dad's leg when he get's home, a Father working on a pinewood derby car LONG after the kid fell asleep, a Father who gave his kid advice on how to avoid a bunch of stupid mistakes, and a Father who's greatest joy in the world is to hear the words "I love you" in return.

Having said that, I do feel that God warns us of the consequences will be for someone who has spent a lifetime choosing to separate themselves from that love. However, I think God would much rather show an unbeliever kindness first in the hopes that the unbeliever would see those outstretched arms, and want a hug.

I think we misunderstood each other, my apologies.

Let me clarify, this thread is exploring the philosophy of faith. The premises so far discussed was that human beings appear to have been designed with an ability to have faith. Therefore, faith would be an instrument towards ones conversion to Christ, or rejection of Christ, God etc. From this, we began next to drift toward the subject of salvation, God’s wrath, etc…

Hope this helps in someway to bring subject of thread back into focus...
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B. W. wrote:

jestes wrote:

B. W. wrote: Goes to show that people have faith and what they place their faith in reveals whom they trust – their own ability to have God dance and perform to their tunes, or naturalism, or secularism, or place faith in the Lord of Host by means of absolute surrender to him to avoid the wrath to come.
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BW, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I just wanted to comment. I don't know if I would say 'in order to avoid the wrath'. While that certainly helps to drive many people to God in the first place, myself included, I've come to view it a little differently now that I'm "in the door" so to speak.

I don't view God as a person who wants us to come to him out of terror. While he may use that method for the hardened/stubborn, I really cling tight to the 'abba' imagery that Paul painted. I've come to realize, and I do believe the HS guides opinions if you ask, that God isn't the ruler who wants you to obey him or else. When I try to 'see' God so to speak, I see this: a little kid running to hug his Dad's leg when he get's home, a Father working on a pinewood derby car LONG after the kid fell asleep, a Father who gave his kid advice on how to avoid a bunch of stupid mistakes, and a Father who's greatest joy in the world is to hear the words "I love you" in return.

Having said that, I do feel that God warns us of the consequences will be for someone who has spent a lifetime choosing to separate themselves from that love. However, I think God would much rather show an unbeliever kindness first in the hopes that the unbeliever would see those outstretched arms, and want a hug.

I think we misunderstood each other, my apologies.

Let me clarify, this thread is exploring the philosophy of faith. The premises so far discussed was that human beings appear to have been designed with an ability to have faith. Therefore, faith would be an instrument towards ones conversion to Christ, or rejection of Christ, God etc. From this, we began next to drift toward the subject of salvation, God’s wrath, etc…

Hope this helps in someway to bring subject of thread back into focus...
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No apologies needed! I wasn't trying to hijack the thread either. I just wasn't sure exactly what you meant. As I wrote a few pages back, one of the many aspects of faith that I see is that within it there is a realization of just how much God loves us. When the choice is made to place one's faith in God, as opposed to the countless other things faith can be placed in, that realization begins to snowball. Since we all agree that faith is the doorway so to speak, the best comparison I have is that it's like opening the door in a dark room with an extremely bright light behind the door. Once you realize how much better you can see with the door cracked open slightly, you can't hardly help but want to open it more.

B. W. wrote:Goes to show that people have faith and what they place their faith in reveals whom they trust – their own ability to have God dance and perform to their tunes, or naturalism, or secularism, or place faith in the Lord of Host by means of absolute surrender to him to avoid the wrath to come.

I think it is a misunderstanding of man's inherent wickedness. Also it is wholly idealistic. Just a fringe ideology, I think.

Faith is the fair means to gauge and judge the human heart justly and God does search the heart and test the mind (Jeremiah 17:10).

DannyM wrote:

B. W. wrote:

DannyM wrote:

B. W. wrote:Yes I do ... the bible reveals that God is just and his justice goes way beyond or ideas of justice - God is Just to all...

What other aspects of God's Justice you would like to discuss?

Justice in sending the unbeliever to hell?

Involves that in oneesmall degree; however, there is more to God's Justice than legel aspects of justie --

Like: Jusice involves being just to all

I agree. It's just, no matter where we look, God's justice is righteous.

There is also another element to faith and that is this – the Fear of the Lord.

In order for there to be faith that is absolutely just, it must be voluntary. Likewise through the agency of faith we can place our trust in God’s grace (by God’s grace I refer to how God demonstrated his grace through Christ Jesus and the work of the cross and resurrection as Eph 2:8, 9, 10c states).

There seems to be a missing element and that is the – Fear of the Lord. Look - at Acts 9:31 and Acts 13:26, 43c to see what I mean and notice Heb 12:28 ‘s injunction.

Love, Faith, Grace, Fear of the Lord all seem connected which differentiates between faith in other things, works, naturalism, evolution, idols, and actual saving Faith in God.

The Fear of the Lord seems to be the glue that holds Faith together and by it, the early church grew. Our modern churches, for the most part, lack this fear of the Lord and the state of the modern church boarders on weakness, anemia, denials, or utter wackiness, strife, one-upmanship, legalism, Christian Phariseeism, etc and etc…

Like faith, love, grace, the Fear of Lord also must me voluntary as well to be just. By it, we are freed and learn about practical Godly wisdom. Maybe, hypothetically speaking, God foreknows who will honestly develop that fear of the Lord and activates it through the gospel message and later by the indwelling Holy Spirit for the believers i.e. faithers.
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