Does 666 Spell Rockefeller?

[B. W.]

Very good post FL,

Please continue the Revelaton/Church comments, excelent!
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[PaulSacramento]

Summary

There are honest people who genuinely love the God of the Bible, even in heretical churches. God knows who they are and promises them a future with Him. God also sternly warns them not to pay attention to false teachings of self-styled prophets whose end will be in hell. There are a lot of such churches today. Can you name any of them? If you can't, what does that say about your knowledge of the Bible?

Well said.
As Christ warned his followers and Us, many will come in his name, some even saying that they are Him ! and they will lead many astray.
I think that people need to trust the HS more and NOT be impressed by those that seem to have the "correct interpretation" of the bible/doctrines.
I know of a few that are happy where they are, know that their organization is NOT perfect but believe that it is better "than the rest" and that IF they are wrong it's not THEIR fault but the fault of those leading them.
Perhaps it is because the bible can be very hard to read and understand that many allow others to teach them AND they DON'T test what they are taught ( even though the bible itself SAYS to do just that).
We can only ever follow what we believe to be right, what we think to be right, what we feel to be right BUT it must be understand that it is WE how are deciding who and what to follow and that it is WE that will be judged on it.
Now, I may be wrong in my views and in my interpretations and I will be judged on them, but I will be responsiible and I will be the one to say to MY LORD:
"I studied, I researched, I listened to my heart and to your HS and I am sorry I was wrong but I did MY BEST."
I will NOT be the one to say, " Hey, I was just following orders".
I will not be the one to say I put my trust in Man when the Word of God tells us to put our trust in God and Christ alone.
I will not leave my "salvation" up to someone else.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Well said.

Please continue the Revelaton/Church comments, excelent!

Well...thanks! Thank God, rather, because I'm not smart enough.

My original intent was to do a complete study of Revelation from 1:1 to ''Amen'' and I had assumed that Grizz_1 and Carpentersson - and anyone else - would help. Unfortunately, enormity of the task and the apparent disintrest in my posts led me to give up. Since I've now received two votes of confidence - from BW & PaulSacramento - I'll take up the task again. I'll do the Church at Sardis soon - I just have to re-read the passage and find my notes and put some sense into it all. Rather, the Holy Spirit has to put some sense into my notes.

I'd welcome verse-by-verse expositions from others (beyond Sardis, Rev 3:1-6). Stay tuned.

FL

[PaulSacramento]

If you like the book of Revelation then you may love this commentary on it by David Aune.
It is 3 volumes and it covers EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING !

[B. W.]

I enjoy your coments on the churches - the state of the church is well summed up!!!
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[Grizz_1]

FL, I was following it. But after Rev 1:4 we part ways. lol Instead of it becoming dis-jointed I figured I'd let you finish then I'd chime in. I appreciate your efforts, it is quite an undertaking and although I'm sure we will disagree on a lot of it, its always nice to see another point of view. Thanks!

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

If you like the book of Revelation then you may love this commentary on it by David Aune.
It is 3 volumes and it covers EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING !

The problem with a commentary such as Aune's is that it is not adapted to the average Christian, and so the books will most probably sit on a shelf gathering dust. If you can distill what you've learned from Aune then your comments would be most appreciated here.

I enjoy your coments on the churches - the state of the church is well summed up!!!

Thanks! I've found my notes and am in the process of making sense out of them.

FL, I was following it. But after Rev 1:4 we part ways. lol Instead of it becoming dis-jointed I figured I'd let you finish then I'd chime in. I appreciate your efforts, it is quite an undertaking and although I'm sure we will disagree on a lot of it, its always nice to see another point of view. Thanks!

Then you've missed the point! ''Revelation'' means ''a revealing'' and it is meant to be an easily-understandable book. And it is! I have deliberately tried for a succinct verse-by-verse study so far, leaving behind a lot of information that would just clutter up the page and bore people but if you feel that I'm leaving behind something important - or, worse, mistaken - you should speak up. If you say ''we part ways'' from Rev 1:4 then we've got a serious problem. I stated early on that the reason for this study was for us to all be ''on the same page,'' that is all agreeing. Otherwise, we just let foolishness continue and call Obama the Antichrist...or Amadinejab...or the internet...or flying saucers. Take your pick.

So: help! don't just sit there, help! It says right in Rev 1:3 that blessed is the one who hears this prophecy and takes it to heart. Don't be selfish: tell us what you know.

FL

[PaulSacramento]

The problem with a commentary such as Aune's is that it is not adapted to the average Christian, and so the books will most probably sit on a shelf gathering dust. If you can distill what you've learned from Aune then your comments would be most appreciated here.

Fair enough, it is a long and sometimes painful read, LOL !
Distill Aune's comentrary on Revelation?
I don't think it is even possible !
But, in a nutshell:
There are elements of what has happened, what will happen shortly and what will happen in the long run in Revelation.
It is not an either/or book, but a book that covers a vast timeline (prophetic timeline), it "borrows" from Daniel and perhaps more so from 1Enoch.
The apocolypitc imagery is typical of the genre and not to be taken literally ( of course).

[Grizz_1]

Yes, I agree Revelation is an easily understandable book. I will try and tell you what I know. I'll make a more in depth post on Friday... work and such will keep me till then. I also agree that "we have a serious problem" as you stated. But we will discuss the problem.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Fair enough, [Aune] is a long and sometimes painful read, LOL !

Painful?! I would force prisonners condemned of first degree murder to read Aune over and over again until they commit suicide.*

Yes, I agree Revelation is an easily understandable book. I will try and tell you what I know. I'll make a more in depth post on Friday... work and such will keep me till then. I also agree that "we have a serious problem" as you stated. But we will discuss the problem.

OK...my study on Revelation 3:1-6 (Sardis) is complete. It is quite long, considering I'm a two-finger typist. I'll post it by tomorrow - Monday - the latest.

Anyone can participate in this exposition. Even if you think the Seven Spirits of God (Rev 1:4) are Confucius, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Jesus, Mohammed and the Ba'hai-guy, I'll let it stand without challenge. If the seven stars are seven planets in the Pleiades, I'll let that stand as well. So let this be a rule: if someone posts an exposition on some part of Revelation, the other participants will let it stand as is and move on to the next verses.

Any takers on Philadelphia? (Rev 3:7-13)

FL

*I live in a country where the death penalty has been abolished.

[Grizz_1]

I did not forget but I'm on the road and typing on the phone is not fun!

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Letter to the Church at Sardis

Sardis was the capital of the ancient kingdom of Lydia. Lydia's most famous ruler, King Croesus (570-546 BCE) is credited with establishing coinage whose value was guaranteed by the state, a remarkable acheivement which is still the basis of most currencies to this day. Previous to Croesus' economic revolution, a coin's value was determined by its weight and type of metal.

King Croesus embellished Sardis with the fruits of his success and even built a road from his capital to the city of Susa 440 parsangs away (1500 miles/2425km). This road carried mail and goods and was a safe causeway for the riches of the east into Sardis. At every 4 parsangs, there was a rest stop which offered the weary traveller rest, water for his animals, and food. A royal garrison at each rest stop assured security all along the 440 parsang journey.

By the time Revelation was written, all of what King Croesus had built was decrepit, and the road to Susa now brought raiders and bandits. However - like many cities today - Sardis was still fuelled by the pride of its past. Into this place the church of Sardis was born and grew.

Rev 3:1, ''...These are the words of him who holds the Seven Spirits of God...'' (NIV) reminds us of Rev 1:4-5 where the Father, the Son and the Seven Spirits (or Sevenfold Spirit) are presented as the unique source of grace and peace for man. The intimacy of these ''Seven Spirits'' with the Father and the Son suggest that they are the Holy Spirit (see Rev 5:6, and see my study of Rev 1:4-5, above.) ''I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive but you are dead. Sardis was a church with a great reputation! No doubt many impressive works were going on there and by all worldly standards, Sardis must have impressed Christians and pagans alike. (Benny Hinn comes to mind.) However, Jesus says ''...but you are dead.''

How can a Christian be spiritually dead? If we are made alive in Christ (Eph 2:5) how can we be dead? We are dead if the Holy Spirit - The Sevenfold Spirit of God - does not control our being. And a church is dead if the Holy Spirit does not control it. Intellectual assent that Christ is the ressurrected Lord - intellectual assent without a heartfelt commitment - is worthless. The same is true for a person and a church. Once this truth is grasped, we may understand the implicit contradiction of those who say, ''I used to be a Christian but then I started examining my faith and now I'm an atheist.'' From a worldly perspective this makes sense. from a biblical - from a Christian - perspective, this is a great contradiction. Once made alive in Christ there is no going back. Once the Holy Spirit guides your study and understanding of the Scriptures, the Bible makes sense. The Holy Spirit cannot guide you away from your faith; the Holy Spirit will not turn a questioning Christian into an atheist. Unfortunately, these ''former Christians'' were never Christians to begin with. In a similar vein, Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven...Many will say to me on that day, Lord [...] did we not prophecy in your name and [...] drive out demons and perform miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me you evil doers. (Lk 7:21-23.)

And so it was with the Church at Sardis: it was spiritually dead. Indeed, it had never been alive. The only life in it was there by virtue of the few who were true believers (see Rev 3:4). The only works which were of value were those performed by these few, which is why Jesus says in Rev 3:2, ''I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.''

Rev 3:3, consider Luke 8:11-13. In the parable of the sower, Jesus describes perfectly the condition of the church at Sardis: ''[They] receive the word with joy when they hear it but they have no root. They believe for a while but in the time of testing they fall away.'' Jesus warns that if they do not ''wake up'' He will ''come like a theif.'' A theif comes unexpectedly and no one wants his visit. Here in this verse is a clue to your own spiritual condition: do you hope for Christ's coming or do you have unfinished business and wish He'd delay it for a while? Only those who can say ''Come now Lord Jesus'' have a sure ticket to Heaven.

Rev 3:4, some at Sardis were true believers, as Jesus confirms in this verse. The others - the majority - were ''...people [who] come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Their worship of me is made up of rules taught by men. (Isaiah 29:13) Implicitly, Jesus would have the Holy Spirit governing this church and no one else.

Rev 3:5, even in this stone-cold dead church, some will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Implicitly, salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit and not the result of the institutionalized worship and sacraments that make things magically alright.

Rev 3:6, The Spirit is to guide the churches, and only those who are guided by the Spirit will understand this message.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Pages 1-2-3 of this topic are amusing...but are largely nonsense because the idea that the internet is the Antichrist was being promoted even though Scripture speaks of Antichrist as a person. In pages 4 and 5 of this topic, I started a verse-by-verse study of Revelation with the goal of showing that this Book is easy to understand; and I invited others to participate but no one did.

I've decided to finish my study of the Seven Churches (up to Rev 4) and so I'll soon post on the churches of Philadelphia (Rev 3:7-13) and Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22). Look for this by Monday, June 18...unless I get hit by a cement truck, or something, in which case it will have to wait until I get out of intensive care.

FL

[ChristYouKnowItAintEasy]

Anyone can participate in this exposition. Even if you think the Seven Spirits of God (Rev 1:4) are Confucius, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Jesus, Mohammed and the Ba'hai-guy, I'll let it stand without challenge. If the seven stars are seven planets in the Pleiades, I'll let that stand as well. So let this be a rule: if someone posts an exposition on some part of Revelation, the other participants will let it stand as is and move on to the next verses.

Let's move on then...

[ChristYouKnowItAintEasy]

Restarting from the begining just for the sake (chinese wine)

Alright. Here we go--the first chapter of Revelation. Highly charged imagery, dense Jewish symbolism, intense cultural and religious pressure, and a rich history of literature collide, producing (in my opinion) the greatest spiritual vision in the Christian experience. If you can enter into this vision, you will see Christ.
Visions in Flame and Smoke (Revelation 1.12-13a)

Before we hear the messages to the seven churches, we are first introduced to the messenger. This is the angel of Jesus, his deputy and representative in this present world. This character will prove an important one, as he is the central figure of Revelation throughout, and so we’ll pause here to take a look at the crucial spiritual portrait John paints:

Revelation 1.12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

The number seven is a number that pops up over and over again, an irrepressible symbol in the Jewish tradition, a traditional symbol firmly cemented into the writings of the Revelator. It is a symbol which we cannot overlook now, for we will see in Revelation seven churches, seven candles, seven angels, seven plagues, seven bowls or vials, seven-headed beasts, seven seals, seven thousands, even seven sevens.

Here we see seven different candlesticks, presumably alight. In Greek, the word here rendered “candlestick” is literally “lampstand;” translated back into Hebrew, the word “lampstand” is “menorah.” This golden candlestick is an intricate part of Jewish religious ceremonies, and is described at length in Exodus:

Exodus 25.31-32 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same. And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

Picture borrowed from www.templeinstitute.org
http://www.templeinstitute.org/vessel_i ... enorah.jpg

One main shaft, with three branches out from either side, creating seven total bowls to burn from. This golden candlestick was situated in the Holy Place, a small chamber outside the Holiest of Holies where resided the Ark of the Covenant. Initially, there was only one menorah inside this antechamber, but when Solomon upgraded the tabernacle into the Temple, he created ten menorahs, lining the left and right sides of the Holy Place with them. After Solomon’s temple was sacked, the temples later reconstructed returned to the single-menorah layout.

Some suggest that, in John's vision, we are seeing a single menorah; others suggest seven menorahs, lining the Holy of Holies as in Solomon’s temple. Either way, we are looking at a symbolic cluster of seven, ablaze with the fire of the Spirit, which reveals to us an angel:

Revelation 1.13a And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man.

There is only one way the Son of Man could appear figuratively in the “midst” of the seven candlesticks—above them. Hovering above in the smoke and shimmering heat of the candles, this figure to us appears. As these candles burn collectively, they reveal to us an ageless symbol, the Son of Man. We are told plainly—when it becomes necessary—what these seven different candles represent, and understanding the source of the fire, we understand better the symbol revealed to us in the heat and smoke of that flame:

Revelation 1.20c And the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Burning together, the seven churches reveal to us the Son of Man, the collective Church. Independant and seperately, the churches are small flames and simple lights—together, they are the light of the world. This Son of Man is a complex character, one that has evolved through the psalms, the prophets, and the law. This Son is a symbol adopted by Jesus for the purpose of restoring Israel, and a symbol revered by the earliest Christians, as the benediction of Colossians shows us. This is the One “that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father,” the symbol of God’s kingdom, who “cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him.” This is the character Jesus mentions time and again in parable, and the hope he reaches for at his own fated trial:

Mark 14.61b-62 Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Up in arms about Jesus’ messianic claims, Caiaphas asks Jesus plainly if he is the expected Son of God. In the same breath that Jesus confirms his anointing, our Christ points to the arrival and vindication of the Son of Man. Jesus knew how his trial would end, and he expected his own death would launch a movement, the movement, that, in time, became a kingdom of saints, immortal and eternal, the glorified Son of Man, the Church, the Body of which Christ is the head, the Temple of which Christ is the cornerstone.

From JJStaller 2008