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Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:40 pm
by Stu
wazatron wrote:I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.
I can admit i could be wrong in my beliefs, but you cannot.
Hence we have war in the world.

My last post.
Here's the thing; you didn't "simply ask a question".
If it was your intention to raise an issue for discussion, that certainly is not the way to go about it.

The summary of your post is something like this: Theists are close-minded, and atheists are open-minded.
You cannot set theists and atheists up against one another like that and seriously expect a positive response, ESPECIALLY when it is not true. Take the world's leading atheists like PZ Myers & Richard Dawkins.. do you really think they feel they could in anyway be wrong?
It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Richard Dawkins
No one is entirely subjective in our outlook; we all have to make sense of the world around us, to interpret it, in the best way we can within the context of our own understanding.

And ending off with this gem (below) certainly doesn't encourage to anyone to partake in your "question". It certainly didn't me.
This is a huge topic and i do not have the time or intelligence to convey all my thoughts.
im still wasting my time. not any more.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:38 am
by Danieltwotwenty
I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.
I could be wrong, anyone can be wrong but do I believe I am wrong? Absolutely not, with every fibre of my being I know God exists. I feel and see his presence in my life everyday and no one will ever convince me otherwise, I stand by my convictions even though I may be wrong.

Dan

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:49 am
by Reactionary
wazatron wrote:I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.
I can admit i could be wrong in my beliefs, but you cannot.
So, that makes you so superior to us in every sense, doesn't it? Well congratulations then. 8-}2
wazatron wrote:Hence we have war in the world.
What war? Religion doesn't even count among the most frequent causes of war. Do some research.
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/wa ... igion.html
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:54 am
by Stu
Reactionary wrote:What war? Religion doesn't even count among the most frequent causes of war. Do some research.
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/wa ... igion.html
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently.
Some stats I picked up on my travels..

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia”

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:51 pm
by BryanH
@neo-x
Any framework of idea can be abused but it does not mean that the origin of something is invalidated because of it. You are actually commiting a reverse genetic fallacy. Constantine, good or bad, proves nothing. It is simply irrelevant.
1) Nikolo Machiavelli : "The end justifies the means". So you are saying that you don't care that Constantine legalized Christianity and forced it onto his citizens. When he legalized Christianity he also banned his citizens to worship the Gods anymore. Did you know that?
2) Do I need to remind you of the Spanish Inquisition and how they tortured people in the name of God?

You can't just say that you don't care about the history of Christianity as long as the origins of it were pure and divine... Or maybe you can say that you don't care that people were killed in the name of God? Which one is it?
So what? what does this have to do with the teaching of Christ?
Nikolo Machiavelli : "The end justifies the means".

So you don't care how Christianity managed to get so many adepts... Dude Christianity was forced onto some people who maybe didn't want that.
what does this have to do with the teaching of Christ?
Let's see. Somebody forced someone... Does that sound Jesus like? Just asking.
lets not be vague here, what do you mean when you say "Christianity", please define?
In a nutshell you are saying that all of Christianity, everyone, was a victim of political manipulation and nothing more. Can you substantiate this claim? How so?
I have already provided a short history of how Christianity spread through out Europe. Read it again and tell me which part you didn't understand.
Please, if you could, go ahead; I'd like you to try and prove this to me.
Can't do that. Big mistake. Nobody can prove the existence of any God. Sorry about that. Accept my apologies.
God, if indeed is real, would logically imply that he is not a philosophical construct that anyone can just imagine and make up. If that is not your definition of God then your statement is severely flawed and contradictory on multiple levels. If God is real (not in the philosophical sense) then there can't be others, if he is not, then the definition is not required to start with and you shouldn't worry about it.
Again, same as above. Sorry about that.
Let me make a statement "Bryan (the person on this forum) is not the only true Bryan (the person on this forum) in the universe."

Does that make any sense to you? If you are indeed Bryan, you are exclusive. There is only one and only one, you.

Truth is not plural Bryan, if something is true then it can't be false at the same time, can it? Any other construct violates the law of non-contradiction. I'm not trying to prove here that my God is the real one but as to how I find your statements, flawed.
I don't know what your point is with this statement. I said that there might be multiple deities involved in the creation of the universe.
You are telling me that I am me. Of course I am.Who would you want me to be?
As there are more than one race on this planet, so there may be multiple deities.
You are saying that only one God exists. Well, that might be true or false. You have no way to know, but neither do I. So we are even on this one.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:01 pm
by jlay
Was Constantine wrong to coerce people into Christianity through political means?
I would say, yes. Because faith coerced, is not faith at all.

But if Constantine was WRONG, by what measure was he wrong?

I think you need to understand the abuse of religion versus the tenets of religion. If Constantine followed the NT, would he naturally have arrived at those methods. No, they would have been condemned. How about the inquisition. Were those things done in the name of God consistent with the tenets of the faith. No, they were in violation.

If I held a gun to your head and said, "say you are a Christian, or die," would it make you a Christian? No. It is fundementally flawed. As was your claim on the other thread that said God tells us to follow his rules or go to hell. This misses it my a mile.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:30 pm
by wrain62
jlay wrote:Was Constantine wrong to coerce people into Christianity through political means?
I would say, yes. Because faith coerced, is not faith at all.

But if Constantine was WRONG, by what measure was he wrong?

I think you need to understand the abuse of religion versus the tenets of religion. If Constantine followed the NT, would he naturally have arrived at those methods. No, they would have been condemned. How about the inquisition. Were those things done in the name of God consistent with the tenets of the faith. No, they were in violation.

If I held a gun to your head and said, "say you are a Christian, or die," would it make you a Christian? No. It is fundementally flawed. As was your claim on the other thread that said God tells us to follow his rules or go to hell. This misses it my a mile.
Not only that, but also it was pretty standard for the Romans to do this with their own gods onto their provinces. At least that is what I know from high school. It is not like there is omething intrinsic about Christianity that causes strife except that believers are easy to persecute and the religion is easily misrepresnted by those in power. Hence why in my layman perspective we have the separation(or at least why the theocratic nature of governments was detrimental to them).

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:44 am
by BryanH
Was Constantine wrong to coerce people into Christianity through political means?
I would say, yes. Because faith coerced, is not faith at all.

But if Constantine was WRONG, by what measure was he wrong?

I think you need to understand the abuse of religion versus the tenets of religion. If Constantine followed the NT, would he naturally have arrived at those methods. No, they would have been condemned. How about the inquisition. Were those things done in the name of God consistent with the tenets of the faith. No, they were in violation.
But if Constantine was WRONG, by what measure was he wrong?
Jlay, Constantine was declared a saint, ok? Now you are telling me that he is wrong, but his wrong doing is not very wrong, it's just a little wrong. Jlay he was a murderer who was sanctified... Sorry but this isn't ok by my book and personal beliefs.

I think you need to understand the abuse of religion versus the tenets of religion. If Constantine followed the NT, would he naturally have arrived at those methods. No, they would have been condemned. How about the inquisition. Were those things done in the name of God consistent with the tenets of the faith. No, they were in violation.

What about the Holy Crusades? Those were supported by the Pope. Was the pope an abuser or a tenet? The line between abuser and tenet is not that clear. Since Christianity was mainly introduced by political choice, well, it is more close to abuse. At those times citizens weren't consulted on such decisions.
If I held a gun to your head and said, "say you are a Christian, or die," would it make you a Christian? No. It is fundementally flawed. As was your claim on the other thread that said God tells us to follow his rules or go to hell. This misses it my a mile.
You make assumptions. How do you know that pointing a gun and threatening me wouldn't make me a Christian? I beg to differ. When it comes to my survival I would probably become the best Christian in the world.

God tells us to follow his rules or go to hell. This misses it my a mile.
You still haven't offered an explanation on that one so please do. When I said "Please explain" in the other topic, I actually meant it...

Here is my original statement:
The Christian Dogma is very clear: if you do not follow God's path you end up in Hell.

Do you consider going to Hell being a choice? I don't know anyone who would voluntarily agree to these 2 choices...
Let me make it even more clear for you by rephrasing the statement above.

Either you agree with me(God) or you will end up in hell for eternity...(agree with me or I will shoot you in the head)

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:08 pm
by jlay
Jlay, Constantine was declared a saint, ok? Now you are telling me that he is wrong, but his wrong doing is not very wrong, it's just a little wrong. Jlay he was a murderer who was sanctified... Sorry but this isn't ok by my book and personal beliefs.
Declared. So what? I said, "But if Constantine was WRONG, by what measure was he wrong?" In this I am referring to a standard. Measure as in judge. Not as in rate whether it more wrong or less wrong. In other words, how do we look at Constantine imposing Christianity (or so he thought) upon people, and judge whether it was right or wrong? I said Constantine was WRONG. Period. And I can say this, because it is objectively wrong to force religion on people by political means. You and I can measure/judge this, even looking back in time, because morality isn't just preference. Otherwise, if you judge Constantine and take acception with his actions, then you are being self-righteous.
You are saying your morals are better. You are imposing your preference over his. But how do you do this? You deny (from what I've gathered) any objective moral truth. That is a contradiction. If morals are determined by society, then Constantine wasn't wrong. You just have a different preference. He prefered imposing religion on the populace. You don't. If morality is objective, then we can examine the actions of Constantine and say, "Yes, that is wrong." It was wrong, it is wrong, and will always be wrong. If this is the case, then morality is objective, and that means there must be a source beyond man. A moral law giver. And thus, God.

I would hope you would take acception, because I do as well. For one I do not think Saints can be 'declared' by a religious group. This however, points out a problem in your own logic. You said morality is determined by societies, and it changes. If this is the case, then what right do you have to judge the Crusades or Constantine? You can't, unless you either are in contradiction, or you smuggle in objective morality (OM). So, it is very stubborn to say you can't prove OM, but then stand upon it to make your point. If you say, "The crusades were WRONG," I seriously doubt what you are saying is that you merely have a different preference than people in those days. No, you are saying, "That is wrong!" If someone holds a gun to your head, and says, "You will become a Christian," You may say, "Ok." But in your mind, you know you have been wronged. Not simply that you prefer not to have a gun pointed and your life threatened. If I point a gun at you and demand your money, "would you object?" Or course, you would say I'm wrong. But what if I said, "It's all relative. I prefer taking your money, over your objection to it." Bryan, you know these things in your conscience.

There is certainly nothing in the Bible to support declaring saints. The fact that some religious organization declared something has ZERO weight in my book. Especially if it is contrary to the scripture itself. Constantine may have had good motives. But to think you can coerce people into faith by political edict shows a fundemental ignorance of Christ and His message.
What about the Holy Crusades? Those were supported by the Pope. Was the pope an abuser or a tenet? The line between abuser and tenet is not that clear. Since Christianity was mainly introduced by political choice, well, it is more close to abuse. At those times citizens weren't consulted on such decisions.
Not only was that Pope an abuser, but so were many others Pope's as well. Today, we have many people under the guise of Christianity who abuse and violate the faith. If you reject this, then you've got my support. The thing I hate to see is when the baby is thrown out with the bathwater. I do hope you understand that we are not trying to convince you to be religious. Man's religion is an opiate for the masses, and is responsible for wars and all kinds of abuses. Christ did not come to make you and I religious. He came to set the captives free.
You make assumptions. How do you know that pointing a gun and threatening me wouldn't make me a Christian? I beg to differ. When it comes to my survival I would probably become the best Christian in the world.
Friend, this is exactly what I mean when I say you miss it by a mile. It shows you have a fundemental flaw in understanding what makes a true Christian. (John 1:12) I'd be curious to know, what you think 'makes' a Christian. It is obvious that you think that God is standing there saying, "join my religion or else." Can you give an scriptural exegesis to support that this is the case? I'm not interested in what some lame brain, back woods, inbred preacher might have said. I'm talking about what the scripture says.
You still haven't offered an explanation on that one so please do. When I said "Please explain" in the other topic, I actually meant it...
There are a lot of Dogmas under the banner of Christianity that are actually opposed to Christ. If we want to understand, then we need to rightly divide the Word of truth. Jesus said that whoever hears his message and the believes the Father who sent Him, shall have eternal life. It doesn't say whoever lives up to this religious performance gets in. In fact Christ turned all that on its head.

The reality of Hell and judgment is not God saying my way or the highway. You won't get that from the scriptures. You get that from people who have perverted religion.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:02 pm
by Stu
BryanH wrote:Jlay, Constantine was declared a saint, ok? Now you are telling me that he is wrong, but his wrong doing is not very wrong, it's just a little wrong. Jlay he was a murderer who was sanctified... Sorry but this isn't ok by my book and personal beliefs.
Here's the thing; you're equating the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) with Christianity. The RCC does not represent all of Christianity.

(Disclaimer: no offense intended to any Roman Catholics on the boards, these are my views)
The RCC in my opinion has made numerous and substantial mistakes; many of the rules and laws they have introduced in the past have no place in Christianity as far as I'm concerned. Judging Christianity based on Constantine's sainthood is a bad call.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:11 pm
by kmr
You cannot forget that the main motivation behind the inquisition, the Holy Crusades, and almost all abuse of God's name was actually power. All of these groups used Christianity as an excuse to perform heinous crimes for their own benefit... be it the expansion of their power by means of territory or by means of religious control. I could give specific examples, but I thought it was obvious.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:16 am
by wazatron
Reactionary wrote:
What war? Religion doesn't even count among the most frequent causes of war. Do some research.
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/wa ... igion.html
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

Stu wrote:
Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently.
Some stats I picked up on my travels..

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico

Reactionary and Stu- you should have done some research from BOTH points of view....TYPICAL.

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.



I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.

Dan wrote:
I could be wrong, anyone can be wrong but do I believe I am wrong? Absolutely not, with every fibre of my being I know God exists. I feel and see his presence in my life everyday and no one will ever convince me otherwise, I stand by my convictions even though I may be wrong.

Dan - thank you for your response.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:41 am
by wrain62
Religious wars like the 30 years war?... Wars ussually have worldy issues surounding them and a difference in religion is just as a opposition spark or an easy dividing line.

30 years' war wiki
"The origins of the conflict and goals of the participants were complex, and no single cause can accurately be described as the main reason for the fighting. Initially, the war was fought largely as a religious conflict between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire, although disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part. Gradually, the war developed into a more general conflict involving most of the European powers.[9][10] In this general phase, the war became more a continuation of the Bourbon–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence, and in turn led to further warfare between France and the Habsburg powers, and less specifically about religion."

It has its part, but it says nothing about the religion itself. I would say it is more likely that people use the deep emotions tied with having a religionas a manipulator of the masses but it all really begins with worldy sin. It is like saying the tenets of land and territory is bad because it causes wars... On te contrary it catalyzes fighting and it does not mean that we should avoid believing in land use. How many people were killed for land, for prestige, for pride than for religion? Religion is just an easy way to get these things because then you manipulate the masses. So is it religion that is the problem or Sin + Easy Manipultion? That is the real problem behind and to what we should look at intead of blaming religion for personal or intellectual reasons.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:14 am
by Reactionary
wazatron wrote:Reactionary and Stu- you should have done some research from BOTH points of view....TYPICAL.
In that case, why don't you show us the other point of view?
wazatron wrote:In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.
What evidence do you have to back up that statement?
wazatron wrote:I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.
Oh please, enough with the typical talk already. :roll: You must have repeated the word "typical" for at least five times. Yes, there is a possibility that I could be wrong about God - maybe 1% if we talk about probabilities. I'm young and I haven't yet researched everything there is about Christianity, that's why I'm not absolutely certain yet. But what does that have to do with anything? I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.

Re: Arrogant atheist

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:29 am
by wazatron
Reactionary wrote:
wazatron wrote:Reactionary and Stu- you should have done some research from BOTH points of view....TYPICAL.
In that case, why don't you show us the other point of view?
wazatron wrote:In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.
What evidence do you have to back up that statement?
wazatron wrote:I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.
Oh please, enough with the typical talk already. :roll: You must have repeated the word "typical" for at least five times. Yes, there is a possibility that I could be wrong about God - maybe 1% if we talk about probabilities. I'm young and I haven't yet researched everything there is about Christianity, that's why I'm not absolutely certain yet. But what does that have to do with anything? I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.

Yours (and stu) was the other point of view!!!

Reactionary:
I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.[/quote]

In that case, i believe the world is flat and is still the centre of the universe!