Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Rick, my brother, I am a fallible man who is proven wrong every single day, just ask my wife . I pray to God every day to show me the wisdom I can understand and God has responded by placing me where I belong, in the Catholic Church; of that I am absolutely sure.

Byblos, I'm getting the strong sense that you aren't agreeing to pray for God's guidance and correction on this specific issue.
How do you know that God didn't place you in the Catholic Church, so that He could show you the error of the Catholic doctrines, first hand, so you'll know for sure when God convicts you that the system you've been following isn't from Him?
There's a very powerful witness to people in a religion, by a person who has lived and believed that system, and has been delivered from it by the power of God.
I believe The Lord is showing me to ask you to pray specifically about discernment in this.

Byblos wrote:

DannyM wrote:John, can you remind me, does Jac claim an unbeliever or apostate has salvation because they always had assurance?

Come to think of it yes, I believe Jac would say that. An apostate has salvation because he always had assurance even though he does not now believe it or display it.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:Rick, my brother, I am a fallible man who is proven wrong every single day, just ask my wife . I pray to God every day to show me the wisdom I can understand and God has responded by placing me where I belong, in the Catholic Church; of that I am absolutely sure.

Byblos, I'm getting the strong sense that you aren't agreeing to pray for God's guidance and correction on this specific issue.
How do you know that God didn't place you in the Catholic Church, so that He could show you the error of the Catholic doctrines, first hand, so you'll know for sure when God convicts you that the system you've been following isn't from Him?
There's a very powerful witness to people in a religion, by a person who has lived and believed that system, and has been delivered from it by the power of God.
I believe The Lord is showing me to ask you to pray specifically about discernment in this.

How do I know? I could say I know the same way you know you have the Holy Spirit, and I do, but it's so much more than that. I'm afraid getting into that will derail the thread completely though. Suffice it to say that I pray for guidance and discernment with everything I do Rick. Everything.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:How do I know? I could say I know the same way you know you have the Holy Spirit, and I do, but it's so much more than that. I'm afraid getting into that will derail the thread completely though. Suffice it to say that I pray for guidance and discernment with everything I do Rick. Everything.

I'm sorry Byblos, I meant it as a kind of a question to ask yourself, not to answer me. That's all I'm asking in this is that we both agree to be open to what God is saying to us. Because otherwise, I don't see either of us changing our beliefs on this issue.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:EDIT:
Jlay wrote:

I can assure you of this, I have never met a person who said, "I used to be a Christian," who has ever been able to convince me under the most basic scrutiny. EVERY time, through questioning, I've been able to reveal the deception of their supposed belief.

This shows what I'm trying to tell you. Just because someone claimed he was a true Christian, and claimed absolute assurance, doesn't mean he ever had true redeeming faith in Christ.
I bet if anyone that claimed to be a true Christian, and then said he didn't believe anymore, would fail the test that jlay talked about, as well.

And what is this test exactly and how do we make sure Jlay is not deceived? (no offence J, just making a point).

You and Danny keep repeating the same thing over and over but you still cannot show how you can know for sure you are not being deceived. You or Jlay may not believe someone was a genuine believer and now they are not but that's not the point at all of secured salvation. The person HIMSELF that actually believed at some point he was a believer and is now an apostate, at the time he believed he genuinely thought he had absolute assurance. But it turned out he wasn't a genuine believer and now he has no assurance at all. Let me repeat this: he thought he had the HS in him and absolute assurance, but now he doesn't. What makes you better than him?

RickD wrote:Taken directly from the official Catholic website vatican.va


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... dy_en.html

Pay close attention to this paragraph. The discerning mind will see:

The Catholic Church also maintains with Lutherans that these good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

Yes, please do pay very close attention particularly to the bolded and underlined part.

Let's not look at buzz words but the whole context, shall we? Might I add this was a JOINT declaration agreed upon between Catholics and Lutherans so if you think something is wrong with it you might be condemning a whole lot more than Catholics.

We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

RickD wrote:Byblos, up until I read this paragraph, I really didn't see a problem with what was written on that link. I was hoping you would concentrate on this specific part that stood out to me:

We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

The part I was questioning was this specific part written by a Catholic. I'm not trying to condemn anyone. I'm just trying to point out what I see as an error.

Byblos wrote:So here we go,


The following are the topics I would like to address in this post as related to secured salvation and OSAS in general. I will generally cover them as I go and not in any particular order so please don't look for them as separate topics. Hopefully this will serve to clarify my position on the subject.

- What is the plan of redemption
- Are redemption and salvation the same
- Are salvation and eternal life the same
- What are works
- What does scripture say about losing salvation / eternal life

The plan of redemption, what is it?

We see from the OT that the way God deals with his people is through covenants. These covenants can be made with people or nations (a corporate type of covenant), or with individuals (personal covenant). A covenant of any kind is by nature an agreement between two parties where both parties are expected to do certain things or to adhere to certain clauses in that agreement. Ezek. 16:8 is a good description of a biblical covenant. A perfect analogy would be one of marriage and that is what Jesus was referring to in Mt 19:9. Note again how the marriage bond can be broken. Does that nullify the marriage itself? of course not.

God's covenant with the nation of Israel was such that if Israel remains faithful, God will protect Israel and will deliver her from her enemies. And we see evidence of that throughout the OT when Israel was faithful to God, He protected her but when Israel
was not faithful, God did not protect her. So covenants do indeed get broken by one party or both but that's for later. The point for now is that even in the OT we see evidence of the universality of God's covenant. It was open for all, not only for Jews but also to the Egyptians and even the pagans. That is God's plan of redemption for all mankind (1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 2:4).
We partook of the covenant breaking through Adam and now partake of the new covenant of redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:12). What kept this covenant going between God and his people? Well it was none other than the high priest (and him alone) making the yearly sacrifice (otherwise known as Yum Kippur) on behalf of the nation of Israel.
That is what kept the covenant bond between God and his people. Weekly sacrifices were done for individual forgiveness of sins.

Unlike the OT, however, in the NT we have enetered into a new and everlasting covenant that is the blood of Jesus Christ. Christ's sacrifice on the cross closed the door on Yum Kippur sacrifices and made the covenant between us and God an everlasting one, a permament one because Jesus is at the right hand of the father and his sacrifice is always made manifest on our behalf. Jesus is our high priest and this covenant will never be broken.

Personal salvation, on the other hand, is an individual choice, a choice to become part of God's new covenant and His Kingdom. What does it mean I am saved? It means I am part of the family that belongs to Christ and no longer part of the family that belongs to Adam. Being in Adam is being dead to God, being in Christ is being alive to God. Alive and made intrinsically righteous by the Holy Spirit.

I happen to believe the mecahnism by which we enter into the new covenant is through baptism, the symbolism of which is between that and Israel (again as a nation) being saved once and for all through the parting of the Red Sea, and Noah and his family being saved through the flood, so are we saved through baptism (Ro 6:3). And here's the shocker, once a person is baptised into Christ they have become a born-again Christian. THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN UNCHRISTIANIZE. I know this will surprise some people that I'm saying this but there it is. They have become part of the family of believers and partakers of the covevant of grace, they are no longer under the law.

Now does this mean being a Christian is guaranteed eternal life? No, it does not. As I said, salvation is being made part of the family of God through Christ, that is a free gift. Eternal life is conditional on keeping the individual covenant and whether or not one has eternal life is determined at the great judgment. John 5:29 and Romans 2:7 are emphatic on this point.
Does this mean it is salvation by works? Of course not as salvation is the state of being saved from being dead to God through Adam. It is done by Christ and Christ alone as the high priest through his blood that is the new covenant. Inheriting the kingdom of God and eternal life is done through becoming part of the family of God AND keeping the covenant which carries certain promises (an inheritance). Look at Eph 1:11, Eph 1:14, and Eph 1:18 for the promise of this inheritance then look at Mt 19:29 to see what that inheritance, you guessed it, none other than everlasting life. Note particularly how this inheritance is obtained, is it through faith ALONE? I don't think so, it is through the fruits of the spirit made possible by being in the family of Christ and only through him are made possible. Look at Mt 25:34 for more emphasis of that point, then look at 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Ga 5:21 that show who will not inherit eternal life and contrast that with Romans 2:7 and Heb 6:12.

So works of love and charity are the fruits of the spirit within us, I don't think there ought to be much disagreement there. But what about baptism and repentance, are they works? First let us define what they are, they are called sacraments. The word sacrament means an oath, but whose oath is it? Is it our oath? No it is not,
it is God's oath to us, in baptism to become part of the redemtpive plan, in repentance to partake of his grace of forgiveness, in marriage to manifest the family unit with Christ as the head, etc. etc. They are not my oaths, they are not my doing, there is nothing I can boast about because their effect on me is not of me but of God's. A crude analogy would be for a drowning man to boast of being alive for grabbing a stick someone held out for him so he doesn't drown. We cooperate with God's oaths, we do not claim them as our doing.

To summarize:

- Redemption: Christ established a new and everlasting covenant to prelace the old one that needed to be renewed
- Salvation: Being saved (redeemed) from our union with the old Adam and being placed in union with the new Adam.
- Born again: Being taken out of the life with Adam (which is dead to God) and being placed in Christ
through baptism (and now become alive in Christ) (Rom 6:3-4 and Gal. 3:27).
- Eternal Life: The promise of inheritance of the family that is in the new covenant, made possible by Christ
as well as dispensed by him at the judgement day (John 17:2).

One final note and as always, I honestly do not wish for this to become a debate because we all know where this is going to lead, i.e. a matter of interpretation of scripture. I offer this as an explaianation of what I believe and why I believe it, that is all.

Blessings to all,

John.

RickD wrote:Byblos, that is a well thought out post, and must have taken some time to write.
Since you stated that it is an explanation of what you believe, and why you believe it, then I will just say that overall, I can understand what you are saying, with only a few things that I didn't understand what you were trying to say. Being that it is only an explanation of what you believe, and why, and you don't wish your post to become a debate, I'll leave it at that.

There is the roller coast Christian experience of new believers in Christ but the end result is a transformed life, not a changed life, but a transformed to be a reflection of Christ like character that will be eventually manifested to the person as their own internal evidence that they do belong to Him who calls and that he will never let them go.

Our Faith should be in God’s great grasping, holding, shaping hands and not that we can bail out on him when the devil comes stealing growth, or when thorns block the way, or the heat of afflictions dry one up. The seed of the word of God test our faith to prove where out true heart resides: Ground that resist the plow or is open to the plow.

It is that test, and God does test the heart, and those whose heart is open to the wonderful but sometimes painful plow remains secure in God’s salvation/deliverance. Those that resist, well, can call themselves Christians but they are not and never were his to begin with. A secured life in Christ submits to the plow and the seed of the word and indeed bears good noble fruit, some double fold, others 10 fold, others 50 fold, others 100 fold…

We have many churches filled with people who live more like the world than live transformed. One reason for this I suppose is that we frighten them by telling them that all works are self works so apathy results. God can change the cold and transform the hot but the lukewarm just prove their faith is not in him at all despite whatever name they claim to list themselves as. A tree is known by its fruit, God help us be known by what manner of fruit we help produce under his pruning, watering, fertilizing, photosynthesis…

Those that are his resist not these. Those that are not his, resist. Therefore, resist not. We should sing, “My Hope is in You”, Lord, who will never let me go. Who transforms me out of darkness into his marvelous light in which Your light makes the photosynthesis happen within my deepest soul transforming me, Your water causes the Holy Spirit to overflow and out flow from me, the fruit produced is yours to use as thou wills, Lord Jesus, Amen.

I happen to believe the mechanism by which we enter into the new covenant is through baptism, the symbolism of which is between that and Israel (again as a nation) being saved once and for all through the parting of the Red Sea, and Noah and his family being saved through the flood, so are we saved through baptism (Ro 6:3). And here's the shocker, once a person is baptised into Christ they have become a born-again Christian. THERE IS NO WAY THEY CAN UNCHRISTIANIZE. I know this will surprise some people that I'm saying this but there it is. They have become part of the family of believers and partakers of the covenant of grace, they are no longer under the law.

In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

4 How can a man be born when he is old? Nicodemus asked. Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!

5 Jesus answered, I tell you the truth, no-one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Now does this mean being a Christian is guaranteed eternal life? No, it does not. As I said, salvation is being made part of the family of God through Christ, that is a free gift. Eternal life is conditional on keeping the individual covenant and whether or not one has eternal life is determined at the great judgment. John 5:29 and Romans 2:7 are emphatic on this point.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

6 No-one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No-one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

9 No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

Does this mean it is salvation by works? Of course not as salvation is the state of being saved from being dead to God through Adam. It is done by Christ and Christ alone as the high priest through his blood that is the new covenant. Inheriting the kingdom of God and eternal life is done through becoming part of the family of God AND keeping the covenant which carries certain promises (an inheritance). Look at Eph 1:11, Eph 1:14, and Eph 1:18 for the promise of this inheritance then look at Mt 19:29 to see what that inheritance, you guessed it, none other than everlasting life. Note particularly how this inheritance is obtained, is it through faith ALONE? I don't think so, it is through the fruits of the spirit made possible by being in the family of Christ and only through him are made possible. Look at Mt 25:34 for more emphasis of that point, then look at 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Ga 5:21 that show who will not inherit eternal life and contrast that with Romans 2:7 and Heb 6:12.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,

22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession— to the praise of his glory.

The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

B. W. wrote:Let's look at theses points...

Faith in loss of salvation?

Faith in that expectant hope that you will lose salvation?

What kind of Good Shepherd does not seek out the straying sheep?

What kind of omnipotent being would die in a true believers place and then be unable to seal them forever His – what kind of love is that – that ends up abandoning?

Free gift of grace revoked – what – by human works – so human works are superior to God’s grace so much so that a true believer can revoke God’s own promise by just walking away?

Faith that you cannot be transformed and thus always remain a hopeless sin filled fornicator, impious, vulgar, litigious, bitter, wrathful, selfish ambitious, drunken, antipathetic, rebel, carousing, idolater, sorcerer, adulter, relationship slayer, with no hope one can be metamorphosed?

What kind of gospel is this?

B. W. wrote:Let's look at theses points...

Faith in loss of salvation?

Faith in that expectant hope that you will lose salvation?

What kind of Good Shepherd does not seek out the straying sheep?

What kind of omnipotent being would die in a true believers place and then be unable to seal them forever His – what kind of love is that – that ends up abandoning?

Free gift of grace revoked – what – by human works – so human works are superior to God’s grace so much so that a true believer can revoke God’s own promise by just walking away?

Faith that you cannot be transformed and thus always remain a hopeless sin filled fornicator, impious, vulgar, litigious, bitter, wrathful, selfish ambitious, drunken, antipathetic, rebel, carousing, idolater, sorcerer, adulter, relationship slayer, with no hope one can be metamorphosed?

What kind of gospel is this?
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