Evidence for God from Science

Seveneyes wrote:

So creation of the universe happened after things already existed.

Are you serious here? Can you tell me what "things" existed, before they existed?

seveneyes,

It may have been the point that God decided (from outside of time) to allow the first actulizer to begin, but since creation began outside of time, it could literally come from any point in the past present or future to make that actualizer begin.

So maybe God allowed the first actulizer yesterday, and my whole life is a past created for me to think took place.

God was not bound by our time and still in't. Nor is he bound by "Laws" of physics.

No one here believes that He is bound by any of these things.

The bible says the point of creation was just over 6,000 years ago, but the Earth was formless and void and the waters were over the face of the deep before creation. So creation of the universe happened after things already existed.

As RickD pointed out, the Bible never gives an age for the creation. And as I pointed out you can not add up the genealogies to get it and the "days" (yom) are long periods of time, not 24-hour periods (see Hebrews 4).

Creation starts in Genesis 1:1. The earth being formless, void, covered by water and dark, is a description of the newly formed earth and is described in Gen. 1:2. So, clearly creation happened before the earth's initial conditions are described. The six "days" are about the transforming of the earth.

Genesis 1:1 is the first act of creation and it is linked by a waw disjunctive to verse two, which gives a description of the earth which was just formed. The first verse is a merism which describes the creation of the whole universe (stars, galaxies, etc). I believe this is backed by a correct translation of Genesis 2:3:"Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it he ceased from all His work which God had created TO make." God created the earth "In the beginning" then spent the next six "days" transforming (making) it. Genesis 1:2 gives us a description of the newly created earth and tells us the frame of reference (surface of the waters) from which to interpret the rest of the chapter.

Most scholars have pointed out that the waw disjunctive "and" (also called waw copulative and waw conjunction) of Genesis 1:2 connects it to verse one. The construction of waw plus a noun does not convey sequence, but rather introduces a disjunctive clause. To convey a sequence (i.e. after the earth was formed, it was made or became formless, etc.), a waw consecutive, waw followed by a verb, would have been used.

Dr. Mark Rooker puts it this way: "…Judges 8:11 and Jonah 3:3 are more helpful parallels to the grammatical structure reflected in Genesis 1:1-2, where a finite verb is followed by a waw disjunctive clause containing the verb…. This would confirm the traditional interpretation that verse 1 contains the main independent clause, with Genesis 1:2 consisting of three subordinate circumstantial clauses describing what the just-mentioned earth looked like after it was created."

dayage wrote:seveneyes,

It may have been the point that God decided (from outside of time) to allow the first actulizer to begin, but since creation began outside of time, it could literally come from any point in the past present or future to make that actualizer begin.

So maybe God allowed the first actulizer yesterday, and my whole life is a past created for me to think took place.

No- it would still be real, it is just an Idea of the creative power being used outside of time. The creation is still real, only many have come to believe that looking backward in time gives us an accurate understanding of it's institution. The actualizer in theory could have come from anywhere and did not necessarily need to come from what we see as the beginning. -Sort of like this. When numbers were created (as in mathematical). The first sequential number wasnt necessarily the first one that the mathematician conceived of. Perhaps his whole idea of a numerical system began with the number 10 and while actualizing his system, he wrote the whole sequence, but it's creation began further up the chain. Not the sequence itself, but the origination of the sequence.

Oh yeah, I understand how Gen. 1-1 is using the words. Only it wasn't clear to me if the first statement in Genesis was a preface and the latter explanation of the days, the detailed explanation of the preface. In any event, more of a moot point to what i was actually saying. Thanx for your detailed explanation. -What language was that anyway? -lots of big words. (hard to tell in type, but I am not making fun of you at all here. Just being jovial)

RickD wrote:Seveneyes wrote:

So creation of the universe happened after things already existed.

Are you serious here? Can you tell me what "things" existed, before they existed?

lol, I never said things existed before they existed....hehe, you would have to read back a ways to see what the pondering elements are here. -In short, it is that creation happened not at the beginning of the sequence of time, but rather farther down the chain. So, creation may have happened while we were already here, or, as another example, creation hasn't happened yet but will be a massive event in our future that causes the past and future to be created simultaneously. Only the effect of the future and past would be completely real and actual. We inside of it actually experience it.

If creation began outside of time, the one thing that cannot be said is that it happened 13.7 billion years ago, or that it happened yesterday, or tomorrow because it happened completely outside of each constraint. The only definitive thing that I see that could be said is this; it appears that the furthest link backward in the sequence is at 13.7 billion of our relative years.

I only use the idea of it happening in the future or at another point in time to highlight that it was a massive creative event outside of time and we do not fully know the effect the event.

seveneyes,

In my view, this would still make God an illutionist, because He gave us an order of events in the Bible and He gave us a record in nature that says that this was the order of events. In fact, even you have suggested that we can count time backwards to creation. In fact, all the way back to Genesis 1:1.

The timeline issue with evolution and the bible is that counting the days and the years since creation happened you have just over 6,000 years and in evolution you have 13.7 billion years.

Also, we see things that occured in the past which needed time to come about, like supernova. The star had to go through billions of years of life before it died in this explosion. So, the evnt is saying that a series of events lead up to this one. The light also would need to, and the signitures in the light say that it did, travel over billions of light years. Therefore, the evnt happened billions of years ago.

From a Biblical point of view, only the initial Big Bang event was from outside of time and space. Everything else is said to happen within time and space. You need to show from the Bible why you would even consider such as position as the one you have proposed.

Lastly, if the days were 24 hours long, why are we still in the seventh day? The seventh day has been thousands of years long.

I guess you dont really get what I am saying. It is kinda hard at times to divine type. We are going in circles now with you stating the same misconceptions of my words and me re-posting it in similar terms. Ahh well.

if a day is 1000 years literally as you suggest, we are still talking under one million years as opposed to 13.7 billion. Either way, you are misplacing scripture because it does NOT say 1000 years IS a day, it is a loose explanation of Gods time compared to our time in a way that we can comprehend. "A day IS LIKE 1000 years and 1000 years is LIKE a day."

So you do not think it is possible for something beginning outside of time to cause a ripple effect forward and backward in time? Everything is just linear in your perception? You dont think that the linear perception may in fact limit you to think outside of the box? What do you say about the slowing of time when one approaches a black hole? The linear perception of time is no longer accurate. Does that make God a liar?

seveneyes,

if a day is 1000 years literally as you suggest, we are still talking under one million years as opposed to 13.7 billion. Either way, you are misplacing scripture because it does NOT say 1000 years IS a day, it is a loose explanation of Gods time compared to our time in a way that we can comprehend. "A day IS LIKE 1000 years and 1000 years is LIKE a day."

What I said was:

Lastly, if the days were 24 hours long, why are we still in the seventh day? The seventh day has been thousands of years long.

Nowhere did I claim that a day was a thousand years. In fact I pointed to Hebrews 4, not Psalm 90:4 or 2 Peter 3:8. I'll link to where I've explained Hebrews 4.

So you do not think it is possible for something beginning outside of time to cause a ripple effect forward and backward in time? Everything is just linear in your perception? You dont think that the linear perception may in fact limit you to think outside of the box? What do you say about the slowing of time when one approaches a black hole? The linear perception of time is no longer accurate. Does that make God a liar?

What on earth does a linear view of time, which has time moving in one direction, have to do with time slowing near a black hole?

The record of nature shows a linear view of time. I earlier pointed out evidence in the universe that show a linear progression of the universe. Physics backs this up:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0110/0110012v2.pdf
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/080 ... 3598v1.pdf

and so does Genesis one (In the beginning, one day, a second day, a third day, etc). You are just trying to find a way to fit 13.7 billion years into a six 24-hour day creation.

seveneyes,

The seventh day:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... cs#p115716

Heres something interesting. When we are in the earths gravity, our time moves at one speed. When we move away from the earth, time slows down. People age more slowly in space than on earth. If you come in contact with a planet with stronger gravity than ours, time will speed up more than how it is on earth and you will age faster. -This was discovered when orbiting satellites seemed to be having clock problems. They all seemed to be running slow. The difference, not huge, but enough to be noticed. Scientific study has been doing much research on the nature of time and found some amazing things out. Another is that time between different people is different. You and I are NOT in the same timeline. Also, if i was passing you on the street, our (unshared) timelines would be at one speed when we were walking toward one another, and another speed when we passed and were walking away. If you were in another Galaxy and were able to see me, you would not see me as I am, you would (if you were looking from a certain direction) see my future and not my present. From a different perspective, you would see my past because you are in a different timeline that is parallel. A consciousness that is outside of time can see the future and the past. If this consciousness could travel into our dimension, it could literally enter into it at any place in time that it directed itself toward. Once time was instituted, God could see all of the future and past. He could enter into each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

We still see a linear progression of time, in both nature and the Bible.

If you were in another Galaxy and were able to see me, you would not see me as I am, you would (if you were looking from a certain direction) see my future and not my present.

No, light still travels at the same speed, so I would only see your past existance. I would only be able to see you once the light from you reached me, you would have died long ago.

Just look at the sun. It does not matter from what direction you are looking at it (look at it in summer and winter, oposite sides), it still takes about 8 minutes for the light to get to you, so you only see what the sun looked like 8 minutes ago. This is why astronomers are direct witnesses to the past.

CallMeDave wrote:

RickD wrote:

These findings not only call the Big Bang theory into question but support the view that God created a mature universe, just as Scripture teaches.

Sounds like a slam dunk to me. Let's pack up the OEC bags, and move out of Dodge. Someone says the bible says something, so that must be true.

No need to clean up the horse dung left behind as you ride out of Dodge ; we can scoop it up and dispose of it ...lol.... (makes good fetilizer for the cacti too )

Thanks for eating the horse dung, and proving one is what one eats, but obviously you knew that.