Evidence for God from Science

No.

So provide the proof then.

*points at both August and kmart and shouts topic highjackers!*

lol lol llol

Sorry, my fault.

Found it, kmart. You have heard of the TNIV, which is advertised as having "inclusive" language. I won't buy that either. I knew it was in the works, but it is not the NIV I have.

http://www.shepherdchurch.com/ktf/LAnal ... 50203.html

*Speaks in Arabic voice* In the name of Allah, everyone please calm down. We are returning to the topic, so do not worry and take control of the cockpit from us.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:*Speaks in Arabic voice* In the name of Allah, everyone please calm down. We are returning to the topic, so do not worry and take control of the cockpit from us.

who wants to listen to the god whose own profit who knew him best did not even write his word
lol *cough*

you guys are getting way off topic.....

prophet, not profit* Yeah, I read about that, isn't that interesting...and I'm not Muslim, it's a joke.

I know a girl who wants to own a jewelry company and she's Jew

*Now officially back on topic*

vvart wrote: "Despite the mistranslation and the bad context I'll just show you the three verses before the part you quoted.

QUOTE
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them to pluck up and to break down, and to overthrow and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them to build and to plant, saith HaShem.
29 In those days they shall say no more: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man that eateth the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. (Jerimiah 31:28-30)

As you can see, the concept of individual acountability is brought up again. The way "the system" currently works is that in theory you can be punished for the actions of your parents. This is considered unjust but necessary. In the end of days, you will be punished not for the actions of your parents but for your own actions, and each man will die of thier own sins.

vvart,

We're looking at Scripture through different lenses, so notably he isn't going to agree with certain prophecies by the likes of Jeremiah. I notice he dodged Israel's breaking of the covenant, and also the new covenant being setup. Where is this new covenant Jeremiah talks of? When did it come about? He/she can't just divert attention to the previous portion and forget to talk about the passage brought up. Such is called avoiding the issue.

Now...

Jeremiah 31:
27"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. (funny how he left that one out)

Obvious reference that God would allow Gentiles to come unto Him.

28"As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD.

Such is a change in tune to how God watched over Israel, being their husband in the face of gentile nations, and keeping them as His own. Now God intends to build up His new house of Israel mixed with gentiles. This is a time God drawing people to Himself personally, the planting an obvious parallel back to verse 27 where God sows the seeds.

29"In those days they will not say again,'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30"But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

Israel suffered many times, the sins of their fathers being passed onto the children. Judgement was often pronounced on whole nation of Israel. Surrounding nations took them captive, as what happened with the Babylonians. Yet, in the new covenant that is open to all, God would be able to treat everyone more personally—something we believe is possible through Christ, our high priest.

vvart wrote:To me this is direct refutaion to the concept, "My son will die for your sins."

Total topic avoidance on his part. Funny how he avoided "any" response to verses 31-34.

Ask him what of the sin, guilt and fellowship offerings practiced by Israel. Ask him why the priest sacrificed a bull, goat, lamb, doves or pigeons for someone's sins. Ask him how their sins were transfered to the unblemished animal (Lev 4-5). Now ask him if Israel really has no concept of a transferance of sins, then why were the sins of Israel transferred to animals who were sacrificed by the priests? Then ask him why such practices aren't carried out today, if the old covenant is truly in place.

vvart wrote:As for the concept of Jesus being our Bail bondsman.
1) It says you must be related, not that you must be from the same community. Only Adam, the first man would be able to say "I am related to all of humanity." Or possibly Noah, but probabbly not.
...

I will only respond to this point, and number 5—the other points don't seem that important. Now with the first point, I find what is said irrelevant as all I intended to demonstrate is that Israel had a very strong foundation for one person fulfilling another's debt. Yet, God associating himself with human nature, by taking on human nature, would be enough relatedness to mankind to be able to redeem them (since He becomes one of us). He experienced things as a normal human experiences, He lived His life in human flesh, and died in human flesh. The only difference between our lives and Christ's, is that Christ lived spotless and without blemish (like the animals sacrificed in sin offerings).

vvart wrote:5) The only part of the deal that Jews have had to do to make sure the contract is not null and void is that the Parents teach the commandments to thier children and that boys get circumsized. In as much as I have learned about Judaism, I would say that part of the covenant is being upheld. "

Circucision was a sign of the covenant (Gen 17:11), a token of one's agreement to it. As for the covenant...

Exodus 24
7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

I find it hard to believe a whole book of the covenant was written about circumcision. What did the LORD say—what did the people agree to be obedient to?

Kurieuo.

PS. You might want to ask him about how he deals with the Messianic passages. How will their Messiah be traceable back to David if we no longer have records? If your friend is Jewish, takes his faith seriously, and takes what God revealed to Israel seriously, then they should still be expecting a Messiah (if Christ wasn't it). How will they know who the Messiah is, if the signs given to recognise the Messiah, can no longer be known? I think it a safe bet that he'll simply try to switch the tables, and begin attacking Christ being the Messiah.

I haven't asked him about the messianic passages, but yes he like all the religious Jews are still waiting for the messiah, having rejected Christ. However he did present a rebuttal and i'll post here:

"Yes the whole concept of the messianic era is that both Jews and non jews will recognize G-d's oneness. Do remember you are quoting chapter 31 of the book. Theres a lot of context beforhand. I would recomend reading it.

To say that G-d needs to "become one of us" to me is just so against any serious theological discussion to me. I really don't know how to make this concept any clearer. The whole Old man on a throne idea of God is just silly. Your dealing with an infinite being that is beyond all time and dimensions. G-d does not reside in the 5th dimention or even the 300th... G-d is outside and within all of those, G-d has no dimensions. The words "The whole world is filled with Him" is basically the simplest and most complete way of saying it. EVERYTHING is connected to G-d.


As for the sacrifices... They are a bit of a mystery to me,... so I will quote http://www.jewfaq.org

I suggest reading more than the first paragraph so you do not come to erronious conclusions.


QUOTE
Qorbanot: Sacrifices and Offerings
Level: Advanced


For a long time I was reluctant to write a page on the subject of qorbanot, because it is a subject with little practical application today. However, I felt I had to address these issues, because it is one of the two subjects I receive the most questions about. Interestingly, the questions I receive on this subject are invariably from non-Jews. Most Jews don't seem to have much interest in ancient practices no longer observed.

I will begin by answering the questions I am most commonly asked on these subjects, and then proceed to a more comprehensive discussion of the subject of qorbanot.

Frequently Asked Questions
Do Jews offer sacrifices today?
No. To my knowledge, no Jews today offer any kind of animal sacrifice or offerings, nor have Jews offered sacrifices since the second century C.E. I have occasionally heard rumors that there are Orthodox rabbis in Israel who practice the techniques of ritual sacrifice, so that the knowledge will not be lost, but I do not know if these stories are reliable, and even if they are, this is not quite the same thing as offering a sacrifice.
When did Jews stop offering sacrifices, and why?
For the most part, the practice of sacrifice stopped in the year 70 C.E., when the Roman army destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem, the place where sacrifices were offered. The practice was briefly resumed during the Jewish War of 132-135 C.E., but was ended permanently after that war was lost. There were also a few communities that continued sacrifices for a while after that time.
We stopped offering sacrifices because we do not have a proper place to offer them. The Torah specifically commands us not to offer sacrifices wherever we feel like it; we are only permitted to offer sacrifices in the place that G-d has chosen for that purpose. Deut. 12:13-14. It would be a sin to offer sacrifices in any other place, akin to stealing candles and wine to observe Shabbat.
The last place appointed by G-d for this purpose was the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Temple has been destroyed and a mosque has been erected in the place where it stood. Until G-d provides us with another place, we cannot offer sacrifices. There was at one time an opinion that in the absence of an assigned place, we could offer sacrifices anywhere. Based on that opinion, certain communities made their own sacrificial places. However, the majority ultimately ruled against this practice, and all sacrifice ceased.
Orthodox Jews believe that when the messiah comes, a place will be provided for sacrificial purposes.
Do Jews want to resume sacrifices?
Orthodox Jews do. There are several places in our daily prayer services where we pray for the restoration of the Temple and the resumption of its rituals, including the rituals of sacrifice.
Did the kohanim (priests) or anybody else eat the animals offered?
Yes! Most types of offerings could be eaten. Certain types were eaten by the kohanim only, or by a specific kohein. Other types were eaten by the person offering the sacrifice and his family. The types of offerings and who was permitted to eat them will be discussed further below.
Isn't sacrifice cruelty to animals?
Animal sacrifice is no more cruel than slaughtering animals for food. In fact, the procedure for slaughtering livestock for sacrificial purposes is the same as the procedure used for slaughtering animals for food, a procedure that is designed to be as quick and painless as possible. See Shechitah. Judaism is very concerned about the proper treatment of animals, and would never advocate a cruel procedure for animal sacrifice.
How do Jews obtain forgiveness without sacrifices?
Forgiveness is obtained through repentance, prayer and good deeds.
In Jewish practice, prayer has taken the place of sacrifices. In accordance with the words of Hosea, we render instead of bullocks the offering of our lips (Hosea 14:3) (please note: the KJV translates this somewhat differently). While dedicating the Temple, King Solomon also indicated that prayer can be used to obtain forgiveness (I Kings 8:46-50). Our prayer services are in many ways designed to parallel the sacrificial practices. For example, we have an extra service on shabbat, to parallel the extra shabbat offering. For more information about this, see Jewish Liturgy.

It is important to note that in Judaism, sacrifice was never the exclusive means of obtaining forgiveness, was not in and of itself sufficient to obtain forgiveness, and in certain circumstances was not even effective to obtain forgiveness. This will be discussed further below.

But isn't a blood sacrifice required in order to obtain forgiveness?
No. Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all.
The passage that people ordinarily cite for the notion that blood is required is Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul." But the passage that this verse comes from is not about atonement; it is about dietary laws, and the passage says only that blood is used to obtain atonement; not that blood is the only means for obtaining atonement. Leviticus 17:10-12 could be paraphrased as "Don't eat blood, because blood is used in atonement rituals; therefore, don't eat blood."

Were sacrifices a symbol of the savior to come?
Not according to Judaism. That is a Christian teaching that has no basis in Jewish thought. Jews don't believe in a savior, and don't believe that sacrifice has anything to do with a savior or messiah.
Quite the contrary, some would say that the original institution of sacrifice had more to do with the Judaism's past than with its future. Rambam suggested that the entire sacrificial cult in Judaism was ordained as an accommodation of man's primitive desires.

Sacrifice is an ancient and universal human expression of religion. Sacrifice existed among the Hebrews long before the giving of the Torah. When the laws of sacrifice were laid down in the Torah, the pre-existence of a system of sacrificial offering was understood, and sacrificial terminology was used without any explanation. The Torah, rather than creating the institution of sacrifice, carefully circumscribes and limits the practice, permitting it only in certain places, at certain times, in certain manners, by certain people, and for certain purposes. Rambam suggests that these limitations are designed to wean a primitive people away from the debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.

Qorbanot
In ancient times, a major component of Jewish ritual was the offering of qorbanot. An entire order of the Talmud (Kodashim, that is, Holy Things) is devoted to the subject.

The word "qorbanot" is usually translated as "sacrifices" or "offerings"; however, both of these terms suggest a loss of something or a giving up of something, and although that is certainly a part of the ritual, that is not at all the literal meaning of the Hebrew word. The word qorbanot comes from the root Qof-Resh-Bet, which means "to draw near," and indicates the primary purpose of offerings: to draw us near to G-d.

Parts of the rituals involved in the offering of qorbanot were performed exclusively by the kohanim (priests). These rituals were only performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. The procedures could not be performed by anyone else, and could not be performed in any other place. Because the Temple no longer exists, we can no longer offer qorbanot.

There are three basic concepts underlying qorbanot. The first the aspect of giving. A qorban requires the renunciation of something that belongs to the person making the offering. Thus, sacrifices are made from domestic animals, not wild animals (because wild animals do not belong to anyone). Likewise, offerings of food are ordinarily in the form of flour or meal, which requires substantial work to prepare.

Another important concept is the element of substitution. The idea is that the thing being offered is a substitute for the person making the offering, and the things that are done to the offering are things that should have been done to the person offering. The offering is in some sense "punished" in place of the offerer. It is interesting to note that whenever the subject of qorbanot is addressed in the Torah, the name of G-d used is the four-letter name indicating G-d's mercy.

The third important concept is the idea coming closer. The essence of sacrifice is to bring a person closer to G-d.

Purposes of Qorbanot
Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of qorbanot is not simply to obtain forgiveness from sin. Although many qorbanot have the effect of expiating sins, there are many other purposes for bringing qorbanot, and the expiatory effect is often incidental, and is subject to significant limitations.

Certain qorbanot are brought purely for the purpose of communing with G-d and becoming closer to Him. Others are brought for the purpose of expressing thanks to G-d, love or gratitude. Others are used to cleanse a person of ritual impurity (which does not necessarily have anything to do with sin). And yes, many qorbanot are brought for purposes of atonement.

The atoning aspect of qorbanot is carefully circumscribed. For the most part, qorbanot only expiate unintentional sins, that is, sins committed because a person forgot that this thing was a sin. No atonement is needed for violations committed under duress or through lack of knowledge, and for the most part, qorbanot cannot atone for a malicious, deliberate sin. In addition, qorbanot have no expiating effect unless the person making the offering sincerely repents his or her actions before making the offering, and makes restitution to any person who was harmed by the violation.

Types of Qorbanot
There are many different types of qorbanot, and the laws related to them are detailed and complicated. This section will merely introduce some of the major types of qorbanot, their names and their characteristics. There are many subtypes within these classifications, and some other types that do not fit neatly into these categories.

Olah: Burnt Offering
Perhaps the best-known class of offerings is the burnt offering. It was the oldest and commonest sacrifice, and represented submission to G-d's will. The Hebrew word for burnt offering is olah, from the root Ayin-Lamed-Heh, meaning ascension. It is the same root as the word aliyah, which is used to describe moving to Israel or ascending to the podium to say a blessing over the Torah. An olah is completely burnt on the outer altar; no part of it is eaten by anyone. Because the offering represents complete submission to G-d's will, the entire offering is given to G-d (i.e., it cannot be used after it is burnt). It expresses a desire to commune with G-d, and expiates sins incidentally in the process (because how can you commune with G-d if you are tainted with sins?). An olah could be made from cattle, sheep, goats, or even birds, depending on the offerer's means.

Zebach Sh'lamim: Peace Offering
A peace offering is an offering expressing thanks or gratitude to G-d for His bounties and mercies. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is zebach sh'lamim (or sometimes just sh'lamim), which is related to the word shalom, meaning "peace" or "whole." A representative portion of the offering is burnt on the altar, a portion is given to the kohanim, and the rest is eaten by the offerer and his family; thus, everyone gets a part of this offering. This category of offerings includes thanksgiving-offerings (in Hebrew, Todah, which was obligatory for survivors of life-threatening crises), free will-offerings, and offerings made after fulfillment of a vow. Note that this class of offerings has nothing to do with sin; in fact, the Talmud states that in the age of the messiah (when there is no more sin), this will be the only class of offering that is brought to the Temple.

Chatat: Sin Offering
A sin offering is an offering to atone for and purge a sin. It is an expression of sorrow for the error and a desire to be reconciled with G-d. The Hebrew term for this type of offering is chatat, from the word chayt, meaning "missing the mark." A chatat could only be offered for unintentional sins committed through carelessness, not for intentional, malicious sins. The size of the offering varied according to the nature of the sin and the financial means of the sinner. Some chatatot are individual and some are communal. Communal offerings represent the interdependence of the community, and the fact that we are all responsible for each others' sins. A few special chatatot could not be eaten, but for the most part, for the average person's personal sin, the chatat was eaten by the kohanim.

Asham: Guilt Offering
A guilt offering is an offering to atone for sins of stealing things from the altar, for when you are not sure whether you have committed a sin or what sin you have committed, or for breach of trust. The Hebrew word for a guilt offering is asham. When there was doubt as to whether a person committed a sin, the person would make an asham, rather than a chatat, because bringing a chatat would constitute admission of the sin, and the person would have to be punished for it. If a person brought an asham and later discovered that he had in fact committed the sin, he would have to bring a chatat at that time. An asham was eaten by the kohanim.

Food and Drink Offerings
A meal offering (minchah) represented the devotion of the fruits of man's work to G-d, because it was not a natural product, but something created through man's effort. A representative piece of the offering was burnt on the fire of the altar, but the rest was eaten by the kohanim.

There are also offerings of undiluted wine, referred to as nesekh.

Parah Adumah: The Red Heifer
Some time in 1997, a red heifer was born in Israel. This birth received quite a bit of press coverage, and I received many questions asking about the significance of it.

The ritual of the red heifer (in Hebrew, parah adumah) is part of one of the most mysterious rituals described in the Torah. The purpose of this ritual is to purify people from the defilement caused by contact with the dead. The ritual is discussed in Numbers 19. If you find it difficult to understand, don't feel bad; the sages themselves described it as beyond human understanding. What is so interesting about this ritual is that it purifies the impure, but it also renders the pure impure (i.e., everybody who participates in the ritual becomes impure).

It is believed by many that this ritual will be performed by the messiah when he comes, because we have all suffered the defilement of contact with the dead. Thus, the existence of a red heifer is a possible, but not definite, sign of the messiah. If the messiah were coming, there would be a red heifer, but there could be a red heifer without the messiah coming.

I have not heard any definitive word on whether the animal born in Israel satisfies all the requirements of a parah adumah (e.g., that it be without spot, without blemish, and that it has never been yoked)."

vvart wrote:I haven't asked him about the messianic passages, but yes he like all the religious Jews are still waiting for the messiah, having rejected Christ.

Make sure you check out the prophecies at http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/evi ... ophecy.htm. Where possible, they also provide references to Rabbis who supported the passages as Messianic. This is extremely important, as it means claims of Christians reading something into Scripture that isn't there (as Atheist often claim) become unfounded. The many prophetic passages Christians cite must therefore be dealt with and not simply brushed aside.

vvart wrote:To say that G-d needs to "become one of us" to me is just so against any serious theological discussion to me. I really don't know how to make this concept any clearer. The whole Old man on a throne idea of God is just silly. Your dealing with an infinite being that is beyond all time and dimensions. G-d does not reside in the 5th dimention or even the 300th... G-d is outside and within all of those, G-d has no dimensions. The words "The whole world is filled with Him" is basically the simplest and most complete way of saying it. EVERYTHING is connected to G-d.

You can agree with his general conception of God here. The old man on the throne, and applying human qualities to God is just nonsense. Yet, the one difference is Christ, who Christians advocate possessed full deity, and took upon Himself human nature.

You might want to throw his way the Isaiah 9:6 prophecy (9:5 in the Jewish Bible), which reads: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

This passage is recognised as Messianic by Rabbis in the following texts:

Targum Jonathan
The prophet announced to the house of David that: "A boy has been born to us, a son has been given unto us, who has taken the Torah upon himself to guard it; and his name has been called by the One who gives wonderful counsel, the Mighty God, He who lives forever: 'Messiah,' in whose day peace shall abound for us.

Pereq Shalom
R . Yose the Galilean said: "The name of the Messiah is Peace, for it is said, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Midrash Mishle, S. Buber edition
T he Messiah is called by eight names: Yinnon, Tzemah, Pele ["Miracle"], Yo'etz ["Counselor"], Mashiah ["Messiah"], El ["God"], Gibbor ["Hero"], and Avi 'Ad Shalom ["Eternal Father of Peace"]

—http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/mp/isaiah9-5.htm—

A note about the sacrifices... from a Jewish position I would be quite worried. Why did God allow their temple to be destroyed? Why did God allow an end to come to the sacrificial system He setup for His people Israel? Either 1) God's desire to strive with any of us is gone (as there is no longer a means for people to come before a holy God as the priests did on behalf of the people); or 2) A new system not based on sacrifices was set in place through which people could approach a holy God.

Someone of the Jewish faith is in a sticky position. Either God has abandoned them and humanity altogether, or God made a new way. Christians obviously advocate the latter, but I'd be interested to hear how a Jewish apologist would respond.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:Someone of the Jewish faith is in a sticky position. Either God has abandoned them and humanity altogether, or God made a new way. Christians obviously advocate the latter, but I'd be interested to hear how a Jewish apologist would respond.
Kurieuo.

how would someone Jewish say PHHHT

Once again Kurieuo, he presents a rebuttal:

"Or, the western wall is still standing and will never fall.

The western wall is the wall that was closest to the holy of holies.

That is why it is the holiest place Jews are currently able to go, and one who has not visited the wall in 30 days must rend thier clothing as if in mourning.

The reason the temple was destroyed was because of Jew's relationship to other Jews. When we stopped being unified and had factions it was deemed that G-d can not be experienced save in unity.

so If I'm to read Isiah correctly, There is actually a Quadinity?
Yes Isiah is refering to a messiah, but not a new covenant, or a freaky human god.


Its interesting that you quote Midrash Mishlei while trying to make a point about Isiah. Mishlei is proverbs. El is also translated as power. any god with a lower case g is called a El. Nobody denies that the Meshiach will be a human and must be from the line of King David via his father.

Since Jesus apprantly had no biological father, he is not from the line of king david.

G-d does not qualify, as the famous quote "Lo b'shamim hi" "It[the laws] is not in Heaven"


I truly enjoy how you say. "nothing can be this way... well except Jesus" If Jesus can be a god, so can Krishna, so can Zeus.

Why are you not a Mormon? Obviously the Corruption of the Church made God mad and he needed yet ANOTHER covenant to be fufilled in the Americas. And did Jesus not ressurect himself inside the body of David Koresh? Who are we to deny it?

G-d does not change nor do his covenants that are declared eternal.

Why does the Torah say that no other religion in the world will even CLAIM to have a national revelation as that existed with the Jews? Only in Judiaism is the claim made that G-d spoke to ALL the Jews at once.

every single other relgion in the catalog of the over 6,000 religions claim that only one person heard G-d's words. "
[/b]

every single other relgion in the catalog of the over 6,000 religions claim that only one person heard G-d's words

How can he get away with saying that? Jesus talked to massive crowds (feeding of the 5,000 (where 5000 refers to only men)). Then we have the apostles, and we have Romans, and the Jewish saduccees pharisees (forgive the spelling).

Also, isn't Isaiah the place that God says Jesus will be scorned and an outcast as well?