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Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:03 am
by MAGSolo
neo-x wrote:My morals were shaped by my childhood environment. They are most likely an extension of the morals of my parents. My notions of right and wrong, good and evil, and what is just and unjust, were shaped by what they told me and what they themselves did. The next biggest factor in shaping my morals was religion. I was born into and raised in a fairly religious environment. I went to church on a weekly (and often biweekly) basis for all of my childhood well into probably my mid teens until my mom just stopped going. My father was not overly religious at all, he didnt go to church because he said he found church goers to be hypocritical. He did believe in God though and was/is a good man by my personal standard of what is good. So religion reinforced what I was told and exposed to at home. So my morals were shaped by my environment, the words and actions of my parents and grandparents and Christianity represented a fairly good sized portion of my environment.
MAGSolo
Established Member
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:26 am
Appreciate your story but I didn't ask for your history, I asked how a subjective world view of yours which puts its right and wrong on various factors, environment etc should be applied to 3000 years ago OBJECTIVELY, why? You keep avoiding the question, please explain.
Oh okay. My subjective world view is largely shaped by the bible so Im judging things in the bible by my world view that was largely shaped by the bible.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:51 am
by neo-x
MAGSolo ยป Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:03 pm
neo-x wrote:
My morals were shaped by my childhood environment. They are most likely an extension of the morals of my parents. My notions of right and wrong, good and evil, and what is just and unjust, were shaped by what they told me and what they themselves did. The next biggest factor in shaping my morals was religion. I was born into and raised in a fairly religious environment. I went to church on a weekly (and often biweekly) basis for all of my childhood well into probably my mid teens until my mom just stopped going. My father was not overly religious at all, he didnt go to church because he said he found church goers to be hypocritical. He did believe in God though and was/is a good man by my personal standard of what is good. So religion reinforced what I was told and exposed to at home. So my morals were shaped by my environment, the words and actions of my parents and grandparents and Christianity represented a fairly good sized portion of my environment.
MAGSolo
Established Member
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:26 am
Appreciate your story but I didn't ask for your history, I asked how a subjective world view of yours which puts its right and wrong on various factors, environment etc should be applied to 3000 years ago OBJECTIVELY, why? You keep avoiding the question, please explain.
Oh okay. My subjective world view is largely shaped by the bible so Im judging things in the bible by my world view that was largely shaped by the bible.
Is that an answer or are you just trying to sneak out of the argument? I am not asking where you got your morals.
Oh, I know better than this
" If you need to do additional study from other man made sources to either interpret the bible or find out what God really wants, then the bible is useless."
No, this aint gonna cut it. Your world view is not based on Bible, it is a subjective world view, you do not even regard the Bible as authentic so forget about it. To you its wrong anyway, let us see how much valid your view is on its own.
The question is still there,
why should your subjective world view be applied to 3000 years ago, objectively? Your view is not from the Bible so do not even think about that pathetic excuse of a reason you just gave.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:26 pm
by MAGSolo
I guess Im not understanding your question. Could you word it in a different way? Are you saying my view of whats right and wrong werent shaped by the religious experiences I had growing up? Where do you think they came from then since you are so sure where they didnt come from?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:27 pm
by MAGSolo
Reactionary wrote:MAGSolo wrote:Reactionary wrote:MAGSolo wrote:By Christian morality do you mean specifically? Do you mean that the bible specifically says that you should help those in need or do you mean something else?
Matthew 19:17,18,19
So yes or no, are you saying that the bible specifically says we should help those in need if it is within our power to do so, or do you at least believe, for whatever reason, that this is what God wants us to do?
"
Love your neighbor as yourself", said Jesus. I guess it's fairly obvious that loving your neighbors means helping them when it's necessary. Note that "neighbors" doesn't refer only to people who live in your apartment building or street. It's about people in general.
So Reactionary if you think that the Bible teaches that we should help those in need when we can, why is it so unreasonable for me to hold God to that standard?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:28 pm
by cheezerrox
MAGSolo wrote:So Reactionary if you think that the Bible teaches that we should help those in need when we can, why is it so unreasonable for me to hold God to that standard?
Not to cut in on a question directed towards someone else, but I would say that it's unreasonable in a lot of ways. It'd be very arrogant and presumptious to hold G-d to any standard, as you'd have to assume a lot of things, such as 1) that you can take into account just as many/more things than G-d has or can, 2) that your morals are perfect, or at least better than G-d's, 3) you know G-d's intentions, plans, and purposes, 4) you have equal knowledge or more knowledge than G-d, et cetera. Honestly consider these things, I'm not saying them to attack you. I'd say that if we're all honest, we've done the same thing; try to take G-d's place as Judge and put Him on trial. But we're all arrogant and proud for doing so, for those same exact reasons above.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:50 am
by Reactionary
Cheezerrox said it all. We don't know what God's plans are, and how He rewards certain people after death. We see only a small part of the picture, which is insufficient to make conclusions and judgements.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:29 am
by MAGSolo
You know what? Thats actually not a completely ridiculous answer.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:17 am
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:You know what? Thats actually not a completely ridiculous answer.
The thing is, even at the best of times human only have a very limited glimps at PART of the picture.
God by the very definition of being GOD, sees the WHOLE picture.
We also need to understand that death, while a final state in our view, is NOT seen that way by God.
It may be of no consolation for US that when a loved one dies they are "better off", but for God that (perhaps) knows this to be true, it is a different view point.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:47 pm
by Philip
We also need to understand that death, while a final state in our view, is NOT seen that way by God.
It may be of no consolation for US that when a loved one dies they are "better off", but for God that (perhaps) knows this to be true
Very true! What if, at the very stroke of a sword, someone instantly finds themself in the arms of the Lord - in Paradise and joy forever? Do you think they wouldn't desire the result of that? Do you think they would want to come back, even if they could? To this often hellhole of a planet? Not a chance! And as all believers will see that loved one again - well, that puts it in quite a different light, doesn't it?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:47 am
by PaulSacramento
Philip wrote:We also need to understand that death, while a final state in our view, is NOT seen that way by God.
It may be of no consolation for US that when a loved one dies they are "better off", but for God that (perhaps) knows this to be true
Very true! What if, at the very stroke of a sword, someone instantly finds themself in the arms of the Lord - in Paradise and joy forever? Do you think they wouldn't desire the result of that? Do you think they would want to come back, even if they could? To this often hellhole of a planet? Not a chance! And as all believers will see that loved one again - well, that puts it in quite a different light, doesn't it?
Its a contextual thing really, for someone that views death as the final stage, death is very final.
If what is written about death in the bible is correct, that this life is but a shadow of what is to come, the death is only the end of the physical body, that on death the spirit returns to God, then death, For GOD, is not something that is a "big deal" in the grande design of things.
If WE KNEW and I mean KNEW 100% that when a person dies their spirit returns to God and they will be more fullfilled and loved than ever before and that we WILL see them again, how much with death bother Us ?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:56 pm
by MAGSolo
So neo-x hijacked this thread and I completely forgot the original point. Was it good/just for God to allow Job to suffer, even allowing the death of innocent people, just to make a point to Satan?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:07 pm
by cheezerrox
MAGSolo wrote:So neo-x hijacked this thread and I completely forgot the original point. Was it good/just for God to allow Job to suffer, even allowing the death of innocent people, just to make a point to Satan?
Well, again, we established that we're in an unfit position to judge G-d in any way. Also, your assertion that G-d did what He did simply to make a point to Satan isn't accurate.
However, because of G-d's previous Actions, Words, and Character we know about as revealed through history, the Scriptures, and His Relationship with the believers individually, we can come to the conclusion that yes, it was both and good and just for G-d to do what He did in Job's life.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:46 am
by MAGSolo
so sitting back and letting Satan kill all of his children and servants was good and just? Whats your definition of good and just?
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:26 am
by PaulSacramento
MAGSolo wrote:So neo-x hijacked this thread and I completely forgot the original point. Was it good/just for God to allow Job to suffer, even allowing the death of innocent people, just to make a point to Satan?
He wasn't making a point to Satan, but to US humans.
Re: Book of Job
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:52 pm
by MAGSolo
Would you like God to allow your loved ones to be killed so that he could make a point to people?