Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:Ten Reasons Why A True Child Of God Can Never Reject His Salvation

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:Ten Reasons Why A True Child Of God Can Never Reject His Salvation

Hey Narnia, I didn't realize this link I posted seems to be from a Calvinist's website. Since I basically agreed with these 10 points, does that make me a heretic, too?

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:Ten Reasons Why A True Child Of God Can Never Reject His Salvation

Hey Narnia, I didn't realize this link I posted seems to be from a Calvinist's website. Since I basically agreed with these 10 points, does that make me a heretic, too?

Well no but at a minimum it negates your argument that salvation can't be lost unless you're a Calvinist.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:Ten Reasons Why A True Child Of God Can Never Reject His Salvation

Hey Narnia, I didn't realize this link I posted seems to be from a Calvinist's website. Since I basically agreed with these 10 points, does that make me a heretic, too?

Well no but at a minimum it negates your argument that salvation can't be lost unless you're a Calvinist.

It's funny, because before DannyM became a Calvinist(or maybe before I realized he was), we were on the same side of the eternal security debate. We both used the same scripture to defend eternal security. I guess where I differ from Calvinism in this, is that calvinists get to eternal security, via the path of TULIP. While I agree with Calvinists on eternal security, I certainly don't agree with how they get to that belief, through TULIP.

And as I've stated many times, I see elements of truth on both sides and will not dismiss Calvinism out of hand. Jac's position comes really close to resolving the issue I have with pelagianism (which anyone who is not a Calvinist will most certainly have to contend with) but it doesn't resolve it totally in my mind.

RickD wrote:

And as I've stated many times, I see elements of truth on both sides and will not dismiss Calvinism out of hand. Jac's position comes really close to resolving the issue I have with pelagianism (which anyone who is not a Calvinist will most certainly have to contend with) but it doesn't resolve it totally in my mind.

Byblos, I know you've discussed this before, but what issue regarding pelagianism, do you have with those who aren't Calvinist?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Semi-pelagianism

Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

Semipelagianism is a Christian theological and soteriological school of thought on salvation; that is, the means by which humanity and God are restored to a right relationship. Semipelagian thought stands in contrast to the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation (in which man is seen as effecting his own salvation), which had been dismissed as heresy. Semipelagianism in its original form was developed as a compromise between Pelagianism and the teaching of Church Fathers such as Saint Augustine, who taught that man cannot come to God without the grace of God. In Semipelagian thought, therefore, a distinction is made between the beginning of faith and the increase of faith. Semipelagian thought teaches that the latter half - growing in faith - is the work of God, while the beginning of faith is an act of free will, with grace supervening only later.[1] It too was labeled heresy by the Western Church in the Second Council of Orange in 529.

The Roman Catholic Church condemns semipelagianism but affirms that the beginning of faith involves an act of free will. It teaches that the initiative comes from God, but requires free synergy (collaboration) on the part of man: "God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration".[2] "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."[3]

The term Semipelagian is used retrospectively by theologians to refer to the original formulation, and has been used as an accusation in theological disputes over salvation, divine grace and free will.

Pelagian and Semipelagian theology

Pelagianism is the teaching that man has the capacity to seek God in and of himself apart from any movement of God or the Holy Spirit, and therefore that salvation is effected by man's efforts. The doctrine takes its name from Pelagius, a British monk who was accused of developing the doctrine (he himself appears to have claimed that man does not do good apart from grace in his letters, claiming only that all men have free will by God's gift); it was opposed especially by Augustine of Hippo and was declared a heresy by Pope Zosimus in 418. Denying the existence of original sin, it teaches that man is in himself and by nature capable of choosing good.[4]

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish

Semipelagianism in the patristic era

After this confusion had been deemed an error, the term Semipelagianism was retained in learned circles as a designation for the heresy advocated by monks of Southern Gaul at and around Marseille after 428. It aimed at a compromise between the two extremes of Pelagianism and Augustinism, and was condemned as heresy at the local Councils of Orange in 529 after disputes extending over more than a hundred years; the term Semipelagianism itself was unknown in antiquity.

Development of the term and subsequent use

Early use of the term

The Epitome of the Lutheran Formula of Concord (1577) rejects "the false dogma of the Semi-Pelagians, who teach that man by his own powers can commence his conversion, but can not fully accomplish it without the grace of the Holy Spirit."[6]

Between 1590 and 1600 the term "semipelagianism" was applied to Luis de Molina's doctrine of grace, which at that time was accused of similarity to the teaching of the Massilians.[7]

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish

RickD wrote:

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish

The only difference between what I believe, and what this says about semi-Pelagianism, is that I believe man can't make the first move, unaided by grace. It's clear, at least to me, that the message of the cross of Christ, makes it possible for man to come to God. And I also believe God "woos" us, as well. As I can see it, both of those are acts of God's grace, and both of those precede belief in Christ.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

In Semipelagian thought, man doesn’t have such an unrestrained capacity, but man and God could cooperate to a certain degree in this salvation effort: man can (unaided by grace) make the first move toward God, and God then increases and guards that faith, completing the work of salvation.[5] This teaching is distinct from the traditional patristic doctrine of synergeia, in which the process of salvation is cooperation between God and man from start to finish

The only difference between what I believe, and what this says about semi-Pelagianism, is that I believe man can't make the first move, unaided by grace. It's clear, at least to me, that the message of the cross of Christ, makes it possible for man to come to God. And I also believe God "woos" us, as well. As I can see it, both of those are acts of God's grace, and both of those precede belief in Christ.

So let's jump right back into the never-ending circle, why does God's "woow"ing work with some and not with others?

RickD wrote:sorry, I'm not going down that dead end road again. Other than freewill, and hearts hardened towards God, I have no other answer. I have no issue with that at all.

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:sorry, I'm not going down that dead end road again. Other than freewill, and hearts hardened towards God, I have no other answer. I have no issue with that at all.

Look on the bright side, Rick. Neither does Byblos' own Church. They insist that free will plays an active part in coming to faith, and that is the issue that he's taking exception to. So your answer is at least as good as the Catholic one. So in that regard, you are more Catholic that he is.
Maybe you are about to start swimming after all . . .

Byblos wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:sorry, I'm not going down that dead end road again. Other than freewill, and hearts hardened towards God, I have no other answer. I have no issue with that at all.

Look on the bright side, Rick. Neither does Byblos' own Church. They insist that free will plays an active part in coming to faith, and that is the issue that he's taking exception to. So your answer is at least as good as the Catholic one. So in that regard, you are more Catholic that he is.
Maybe you are about to start swimming after all . . .

What you neglected to mention is a little thing called light of faith, which is also from God so I guess that makes both me and Rick Calvinists. You can stop swimming Rick .