Evidence for God from Science

cheezerrox wrote: I understand you're passionate about this subject, and I hope you aren't implying I suger coat my messages. You haven't offended me, but have you considered why the message isn't getting through? For one, our message is about Yeshua, not Torah. It's one of salvation, not a lifestyle. And for two, if your message isn't getting through, it means the other people aren't being convicted by the Spirit through what you're saying. What I'm saying is that this discussion is now fruitless, it's gone beyond trying to show people another interpretation/understanding of the Scriptures, it's turned into trying to prove ourselves right and other people right. That's not how the Body should interact, unless someone's in serious doctrinal era. Edifying our brothers is more important than convincing them to keep Torah, because our strength is in our faith in Messiah, not our obedience to the mitzvot.

Yes, I realize that... But when people start accusing me of silly things like judiazing and then crapping on G-d's commandments, I'm sorry but I take that personal.. This is also spiritual warfare and sometimes it can get messy. I have a hard time with Christians who propose such nonsense and then condemn our Jewish brothers for following them out.

In the words of Revelation, G-d has every right to vomit us out of His mouth.....

Revelation 3:15-16
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

cheezerrox wrote:Now, see, this is what I'm saying. Once I embraced the Messianic lifestyle and understanding of the Scriptures, it deepended my faith and my walk with G-d. But, as you've said, it is not for everyone, including Spirit-indwelled, sincere, righteous, saved believers. Debating is one thing, but arguing is another. It's good to share the Messianic understanding of the Bible with others, but we should not need to argue with them about it. The message will either convict or not, and if it doesn't, then that's that. Let's be careful not to forget about our first love, chaver.

Agreed.... But we also need to stand firm sometimes too. That is all I'm saying..

cheezerrox wrote:Geeze.
I'd just like to establish one thing that seems to be a misunderstanding on both sides when it comes to this debate. About the "curse of the Law," Messianics and traditional Christians just have two different ways of interpreting the phrase. Messianics read Galatians 3:13 and see it not saying "the curse, which is the Law," but "the curse of the Law (that comes from disobedience, as explained in Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

It is the curse from disobeying the law. The curse was death. The curse was not satisfied by the sacrifice of animals because God wanted the calves of our lips. He wants our love to come from the inside and shine out to reflect him in all that we think and do. Gods commandments dealing with how to love him and our neighbor can never be anything less than a guide to holiness. I have always considered them principles of intent.

cheezerrox wrote:I do believe that Torah is still our standard for living, even in Messiah, not for the purpose of salvation or sanctification, but just because it's G-d's standard that He gave for us to follow.

I agree that it is our standard for living. And no it is not for the purpose of trading outward actions for eternal life. It is however, our minimal duty to reflect all of those guiding principles from our core. The bottom line question being tackled is whether we are obligated to follow the principles or not and then determine if it can affect a believers salvation.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

It has been clearly stated in several ways that there are those who do not and will not have eternal life, the reason given is because they are breaking the intent of Gods commandments to love him and our neighbor. So how do we define what those things are that can cost a believer their salvation? Are we supposed to keep the sabbath holy as God intended it to be or can we just make every day the same and it makes no difference to God?

These are things that I wish to explore... not with intent to convince or degrade but to do as God asked to compare what is believed and taught by researching his word. I am fairly certain that one does not simply attain to the holiness God desires without effort on our part.
However, I am quite certain that he will help us on the path to allow it to be attainable. Christ was supposed to be the first example of an attainable holiness for a huge family of brothers and sisters that would one day also inherit eternal life.
I simply have not been able to rationalise from his word that not following the guiding principles for living he gave, hold no sway on whether we can be saved if we don't live thier intent.

Again you are confused on the message of G-d.. G-d's message from Genesis to Revelation is LOVE... The whole thing is LOVE including all His commandments. They are not useless dribble and when we apply it in our lives we are blessed. According to Christ, they are life...

This is the issue G. YOu are confused about how to divide the word of truth. I 100% believe that ALL scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correction and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped.

Matthew 19:16-17, “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? So He said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.’[/u]

Which commandments? The ones in the Torah... All of it.

Excellent, I'm glad you brought this up. Jesus specifically mentions 5 commands. You also left out the part about selling all you have.
So, are you saying that the way a person is saved is by following the commands and by selling all they have? Or, do you need to sell all you have to love God? Have you done this? You see, once again you neglect the context of the scripture to superimpose your Judiazing presuppositions. This text is NEVER presented as a Gospel. It is presented as Jesus creating a stumbling block for a man who needed to have his understanding of the word "good" rebuked and corrected. And then have his self-righteousness dealt with. (the fact that he said he had kept those commands) That is what the man needed, and that is what Jesus delivered. Did Jesus say, "Great you've kept those commands, therefore you have loved me."? NO. So, this doesn't help your case at all Gman.

jlay wrote:Completely and fundementally wrong. The definition of love is this. We are 1st loved by God. The one thing we all learned in the morality thread is that the GR is in the epistemological sense, objectively true. And it is ontologically sourced in the being and love of God. Which is exactly why Paul said the law is fulfilled when we love our neighbor. I don't need a rule to know that I would not want to have my possessions stolen. I don't need a rule to know that I am loved by God.

You don't need any rules?

G, your debating skills are childish. Where did I say I don't need ANY rules. Paul lays out many things we should and shouldn't do. There is most certainly a response the believer SHOULD make, and a way they SHOULD live.

Do you suppose we live in chaos? Get rid of all our laws in our societies today that protect the innocent? Remove judges and policemen from their jobs? Sorry.. I'm not going to live in that chaotic world.

Again, I didn't say that. Serious question, do you really think a moderator should resort to this nonsense? I don't.

Judiazing? Bah humbug.. That silly belief was given by some scared theologian thousands of years ago... That is based on fear... Fear of what? G-d's commandments? If you have a problem with G-d's OT laws perhaps you could explain how these commandments are curses or bad for us...

G, I guess Paul was a scared theologian. I showed you contextually how you are conflating the word command. It couldn't be any more clear. It has nothing to do with fear. The law was good and sacred for the purposes it served. I've never described the law any differently than Paul.

Horrible stuff...

Your antics are sophmoric. The Levitical law contained many universal truths. So, was it OK to take advantage of people before the law of sinai was given? Uh, no.

That is the ultimate goal of G-d's laws, but that is not the mechanics of law or love... Love needs a foundation too... You have no working definition of love outside of G-d's commandments..

A bald assertion. You've yet to prove that. God demonstrated His love in this..........giving the commands? No. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Not to mention you have no mechanic for your law outside of theocratic Israel.

jlay wrote: This is the issue G. YOu are confused about how to divide the word of truth. I 100% believe that ALL scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correction and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped.

Yes, you say that you love your neighbor as yourself that you fulfill all the commandments, Mark 12:31. To which I say is correct, that is the ultimate goal of G-d's commandments. Next question... What does it mean to love thy neighbor as thyself? That is where we need to understand and apply Torah in our lives... It's that simple.

My claim is this.. When we apply G-d commandments correctly in our lives it will bring life, joy, peace, and contentment in our lives. Marriages are restored, people go off drugs, people have a greater respect for the environment, people have time for their families (honoring Shabbat), people help the poor, it brings unity, and ultimately it brings forth love. It is not bad, it is good. EVERYONE benefits.. Just as Romans 7:12 states..

Matthew 19:16-17, “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? So He said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.’[/u]

Which commandments? The ones in the Torah... All of it.

jlay wrote:Excellent, I'm glad you brought this up. Jesus specifically mentions 5 commands. You also left out the part about selling all you have.
So, are you saying that the way a person is saved is by following the commands and by selling all they have? Or, do you need to sell all you have to love God? Have you done this? You see, once again you neglect the context of the scripture to superimpose your Judiazing presuppositions. This text is NEVER presented as a Gospel. It is presented as Jesus creating a stumbling block for a man who needed to have his understanding of the word "good" rebuked and corrected. And then have his self-righteousness dealt with. (the fact that he said he had kept those commands) That is what the man needed, and that is what Jesus delivered. Did Jesus say, "Great you've kept those commands, therefore you have loved me."? NO. So, this doesn't help your case at all Gman.

I have no clue what you are talking about.. You can keep the commandments all you want, but if you practice them in a legalistic manner and not in love then of course they are nothing.. This man that Yeshua was rebuking had apparently made his lifestyle into an idol and needed to make a clean break. There is nothing in this verse that says that G-d's commandments are now void.

jlay wrote:G, your debating skills are childish. Where did I say I don't need ANY rules. Paul lays out many things we should and shouldn't do. There is most certainly a response the believer SHOULD make, and a way they SHOULD live.

You were claiming that G-d's commandments in the Tanach were weak and finished.. Paul never said that the laws in front of our Bible was a sin to follow Romans 7:7.

jlay wrote:G, I guess Paul was a scared theologian. I showed you contextually how you are conflating the word command. It couldn't be any more clear. It has nothing to do with fear. The law was good and sacred for the purposes it served. I've never described the law any differently than Paul.

Again, Paul never said that G-d's laws were ever done away with. Paul never said that G-d's laws "were" good or finished. He claimed that G-d's laws ARE good and that we need to establish it in our lives.

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

Theologians in the past have made a mockery or error in G-d's commandments, but not anything Paul would have stated.

jlay wrote:Your antics are sophmoric. The Levitical law contained many universal truths. So, was it OK to take advantage of people before the law of sinai was given? Uh, no.

I have no clue what you are talking about.. G-d's commandments were never given to take advantage of others.. Never. Believers however could turn them into legalism.. That is true.

jlay wrote:A bald assertion. You've yet to prove that. God demonstrated His love in this..........giving the commands? No. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Not to mention you have no mechanic for your law outside of theocratic Israel.

No? Here is my assertion again. G-d demonstrated His love in His commandments. Of course He did.. It's that simple...

I think that Jlay is trying to explain that the Law was created to "point the way to Sin" in a concrete way ( before there was a law people knew that unjustified killing was wrong morally, the Law made it wrong "legally") and once that was done, the Law served its intended purpose.

PaulSacramento wrote:I think that Jlay is trying to explain that the Law was created to "point the way to Sin" in a concrete way ( before there was a law people knew that unjustified killing was wrong morally, the Law made it wrong "legally") and once that was done, the Law served its intended purpose.

Oh I would say that G-d's commandments points us to sin.. That is why we still need it otherwise we have no working definition of sin or love or anything else for that matter. If we say it's done away with as Jlay thinks, then we don't know what sin is, and if we don't know what sin is then we don't know what grace is either... What Christ saved us from.. This would be my belief on that.

We need to stop sinning.. Believe me, I'm just as guilty as everyone else..

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think that Jlay is trying to explain that the Law was created to "point the way to Sin" in a concrete way ( before there was a law people knew that unjustified killing was wrong morally, the Law made it wrong "legally") and once that was done, the Law served its intended purpose.

Oh I would say that G-d's commandments points us to sin.. That is why we still need it otherwise we have no working definition of sin or love or anything else for that matter. If we say it's done away with as Jlay thinks, then we don't know what sin is, and if we don't know what sin is then we don't know what grace is either... What Christ saved us from.. This would be my belief on that.

We need to stop sinning.. Believe me, I'm just as guilty as everyone else..

G, do you as a believer, have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If yes, then it is He who guides you, and conforms you to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit is the "law" written on a believer's heart. That is why the written law is obsolete. We as believers have a new and better covenant. The Holy Spirit in a believer convicts us of sin, and we personally know God's grace. Just my take on it.

RickD wrote: G, do you as a believer, have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If yes, then it is He who guides you, and conforms you to the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit is the "law" written on a believer's heart. That is why the written law is obsolete. We as believers have a new and better covenant. The Holy Spirit in a believer convicts us of sin, and we personally know God's grace. Just my take on it.

But yet we use G-d's instructions to walk rightly in front of Him, not that we will ever do that perfectly until He comes... Although the Newer covenant is distinct from the Tanach or OT, and it's system of priesthood and sacrifice, G-d can still use it to carry out His original covenantal purposes if we understand what those are.

My claim is this.. When we apply G-d commandments correctly in our lives it will brings life, joy, peace, and contentment in our lives. Marriages are restored, people go off drugs, people have a greater respect for the environment, people have time for their families (honoring Shabbat), people help the poor, it brings unity, and ultimately it brings forth love. It is not bad, it is good. EVERYONE benefits.. Just as Romans 7:12 states..

First of all, interesting that this morning my reading was from Romans 7. And I immediately thought of our conversation. Yes Paul said, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Amen.
Unfortunately you ignore the context of everything else Paul said in Romans 7. For example, But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
The FRUIT of the SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Not the fruit of the Law. The Law does have a spiritual relevance as Paul points out. It shows us how utterly sinful we are. Romans 3:20, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

I have no clue what you are talking about.. You can keep the commandments all you want, but if you practice them in a legalistic manner and not in love then of course they are nothing.. This man that Yeshua was rebuking had apparently made his lifestyle into an idol and needed to make a clean break. There is nothing in this verse that says that G-d's commandments are now void.

Of course, Jesus didn't speak of voiding the Law because he was speaking to apostate Israel. You know, the covenant theocracy through whom the Law works. The one that is currently not in operation. Peter was commissioned with that message. Yet from Acts 1 through 13 we see Peter's message diminish and Paul's come into prominence. Paul's came with much controversy among the Jews.

You were claiming that G-d's commandments in the Tanach were weak and finished.. Paul never said that the laws in front of our Bible was a sin to follow Romans 7:7.

Paul warns the Galatians of the dangers of trying to go back to following the law.

Again, Paul never said that G-d's laws were ever done away with. Paul never said that G-d's laws "were" good or finished. He claimed that G-d's laws ARE good and that we need to establish it in our lives

I am one who believes that Paul wrote Hebrews. Heb. 7:18 Again, those are not my words, but the words in the NT. Obviously, we have a very different opinion on what is being estabished here, and how. He says, "do we make void the law through faith? No, we establish the law." How is the law established today? Through faith. But, it seems that you are in fact saying that the obeying the law is the fruit of the spirit.

jlay wrote: First of all, interesting that this morning my reading was from Romans 7. And I immediately thought of our conversation. Yes Paul said, "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Amen.
Unfortunately you ignore the context of everything else Paul said in Romans 7. For example, But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
The FRUIT of the SPIRIT is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Not the fruit of the Law. The Law does have a spiritual relevance as Paul points out. It shows us how utterly sinful we are. Romans 3:20, "by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

J, sometimes I read what you are saying and I have no clue where you are going with this... I have always advocated that we are NEVER justified by working G-d's instructions or law as you call it.. It is merely letters written on paper... It has no magical value. You can't wrap someone in a Torah scroll and expect magical things to start happening to them or a glowing goat to mysteriously start appearing in front of them. However they are useful for instruction, reproof, and doctrine as 2 Timothy 3:16 clearly states. So the letters themselves are not spiritual, correct, however how we apply it to our lives does direct our spiritual paths.

I really don't know how to make this clearer besides jumping up and down with a roman candle...

jlay wrote:Of course, Jesus didn't speak of voiding the Law because he was speaking to apostate Israel. You know, the covenant theocracy through whom the Law works. The one that is currently not in operation. Peter was commissioned with that message. Yet from Acts 1 through 13 we see Peter's message diminish and Paul's come into prominence. Paul's came with much controversy among the Jews.

Right... Well one day G-d's theocracy will reign once again on earth so it shouldn't be a shock to those who follow it. On top of that I think it's a joy to practice the Biblical festivals and take a day off from work on the Shabbats. I don't want to work seven days a week.... If you want to put yourself into bondage then please feel free to do so.. I ain't budging.

jlay wrote:Paul warns the Galatians of the dangers of trying to go back to following the law.

Quite right... It's horrible.. Caring for the elderly, honoring your parents, talking a day off work, respecting the environment, eating healthy, etc.. Who would want that?

jlay wrote:I am one who believes that Paul wrote Hebrews. Heb. 7:18 Again, those are not my words, but the words in the NT. Obviously, we have a very different opinion on what is being estabished here, and how. He says, "do we make void the law through faith? No, we establish the law." How is the law established today? Through faith. But, it seems that you are in fact saying that the obeying the law is the fruit of the spirit.

Ultimately it is establish via faith, true, but we obey Him because we are united with Him. It will produce fruit made in righteousness.

James 1:25
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

Colossians 1:6
that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

1 John 3:22-24 then, whatever we ask for, we receive from him; because we are obeying his commands and doing the things that please him. 23 This is his command: that we are to trust in the person and power of his Son Yeshua the Messiah and to keep loving one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands remain united with him and he with them. Here is how we know that he remains united with us: by the Spirit whom he gave us.

1 John 5:3-4, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Right... Well one day G-d's theocracy will reign once again on earth so it shouldn't be a shock to those who follow it. On top of that I think it's a joy to practice the Biblical festivals and take a day off from work on the Shabbats. I don't want to work seven days a week.... If you want to put yourself into bondage then please feel free to do so.. I ain't budging.

That's great. I don't even want to work six days a week. I take two days off. But I'm not going to claim that doing so is 'loving' God, or required to love God. So that is fine. If you have joy doing that, then I say let each man be convinced in his own mind. But of course, we know that is not what you are saying at all.

Quite right... It's horrible.. Caring for the elderly, honoring your parents, talking a day off work, respecting the environment, eating healthy, etc.. Who would want that?

You see G, you once again resort to some sophmoric reply. In reading Paul, we see that the believer has many things they should do.

1 John 3:22-24 then, whatever we ask for, we receive from him; because we are obeying his commands and doing the things that please him. 23 This is his command: that we are to trust in the person and power of his Son Yeshua the Messiah and to keep loving one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands remain united with him and he with them. Here is how we know that he remains united with us: by the Spirit whom he gave us.

Uhh, the commands are listed right there in the verse. Nice one.

jlay wrote: That's great. I don't even want to work six days a week. I take two days off. But I'm not going to claim that doing so is 'loving' God, or required to love God. So that is fine. If you have joy doing that, then I say let each man be convinced in his own mind. But of course, we know that is not what you are saying at all.

LOL.. Ok amigo.. I honestly don't know all the reasons why G-d would want to us to take a certain day off work, but if you want my honest opinion I would say that He wanted us to take a day off so that we don't burn out.. Like any loving parent would.. Why a certain day? To remove all believers from society to worship in oneness and unity... That would be my guess.... Unity. To create the Echad Deut 6:4. If we deviate away from this commandment then we are creating division in the body. Something Yeshua never advocated Mark 3:25.

So if this is bad or legalistic then I guess I'm doomed for following it.. But it is my guess....

jlay wrote:You see G, you once again resort to some sophmoric reply. In reading Paul, we see that the believer has many things they should do.

Yes, and we should apply the ones we can. Obviously we can't do them all.. Some Torah instructions aren't even made for us. Some are for women, some for priests, etc...

1 John 3:22-24 then, whatever we ask for, we receive from him; because we are obeying his commands and doing the things that please him. 23 This is his command: that we are to trust in the person and power of his Son Yeshua the Messiah and to keep loving one another, just as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands remain united with him and he with them. Here is how we know that he remains united with us: by the Spirit whom he gave us.

jlay wrote:Uhh, the commands are listed right there in the verse. Nice one.

However if you go back up a few chapters before this verse Paul clearly states "The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning." Keep in mind that the New Testament didn't even really appear until it was canonized some 3 hundred years later... So Paul must have been referring to the Tanach as well as the other NT writers... As he states...

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

Beginning of what? "The word which you heard from the beginning."
There are a couple of ways to look at this. First, 1 John 1:1 says, That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

Let us assume that beginning is the "in the beginning." Now, what we do know is that the Mosaic law was NOT from the beginning. So, what beginning? Could it be the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry? Sure. Either way, you are presuming the word command to refer specifically to the Mosaic Law.
I would say it is when these people began their walk with Christ. Here is what 1 John 3:11 says, "For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another."
That was certainly the message Jesus preached to those on the inner circle. John 14-17. And it was obviously the thrust of the message preached to these people to whom John is writing.

In John 6:28,29 Jesus is asked....“What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

In 1 John 3:24 "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
So, 1 John, which is a guide for living the discipled life, list these two very specific commands.

jlay wrote:1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

jlay wrote:Beginning of what? "The word which you heard from the beginning."
There are a couple of ways to look at this. First, 1 John 1:1 says, That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
Let us assume that beginning is the "in the beginning." Now, what we do know is that the Mosaic law was NOT from the beginning. So, what beginning? Could it be the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry? Sure. Either way, you are presuming the word command to refer specifically to the Mosaic Law.

It is unfortunate that you see a division in Gods word concerning when it was commanded. You are perceptually inferring that when Christ said "We should love one another" that this is a brand new message / concept begun when Christ first began his mission but this is far from the truth as we can see here;

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All of Gods commandments about how we should conduct ourselves flow from two guiding principles.
1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
2) Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
This is the royal law. They are the two principles that the decalogue was formed from. When Christ came to deliver his message it was not a new message from the father but rather, it was a magnification of the previous commandments in the decalogue and the royal law. Christs message at that time was that simply following the letter of the law was insufficient to gain salvation since it only covered the outward actions of a person. The command that Christ states at the beginning of his mission to "love one another" is not the 'beginning' of that message to us from God.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

It is clear that Christ is restating a command that was given long ago to the Jews at the time of the exodus. God doesn't change, his message doesn't change. He has always commanded human beings to love him with all our heart and he has always wanted human beings to love their neighbour as themselves. Here is the other royal command as originally delivered;

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart...

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

So if these two commands were Jewish only commands then why would Christ be emphasising them during his ministry and how can a restated message have its beginning at the point of restatement? It can't. This is the message from God to mankind from "the beginning" of his message to us through the Jewish nation.

So if you agree that we who are not Jews are required by law to obey the two royal commandments then this is how we are still obligated to also obey the decalogue since both halves of the decalogue were derived from the two royal commanments.

A) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the principle that God uses to define how we show him love ... and these are some of the defined ways God says you can perform that priciple;

1) Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

2) Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4) Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.


B) Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

This principle is how God commands that we should conduct ourselves with others and the decalogue commands derived from it are;

5) Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6) Thou shalt not kill.

7) Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Neither shalt thou steal.

9) Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10) Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

If you are intent to obey the principles restated by Christ then each of the decalogue commands which were derived from those principles when they were first given also continue to apply. The difference now since Christ brought his message was that we should not simply perform them for outward show. We are now required to apply them to our inner man. To confirm this look at this verse;

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

See in the old time people only had to provide an outward show of obeyance for the written laws. Christs new message is that an outward show isn't good enough. You must follow the laws according to their intent.

Which of the decalogues commands would you assert that the Holy spirit would say to disregard because it was for the Jews only?

jlay wrote: Beginning of what? "The word which you heard from the beginning."
There are a couple of ways to look at this. First, 1 John 1:1 says, That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

Let us assume that beginning is the "in the beginning." Now, what we do know is that the Mosaic law was NOT from the beginning. So, what beginning? Could it be the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry? Sure. Either way, you are presuming the word command to refer specifically to the Mosaic Law.

?? 1 John 2:3-7 talks about the old commandment which is the word which you heard from the beginning. Are you saying that Christ's commandments are old? Scripture is very clear that He brought forth the renewed covenant.

jlay wrote:I would say it is when these people began their walk with Christ. Here is what 1 John 3:11 says, "For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another."
That was certainly the message Jesus preached to those on the inner circle. John 14-17. And it was obviously the thrust of the message preached to these people to whom John is writing.

Right... Love, love, love.. But you still haven't provided what it means to love Biblically.

jlay wrote:In John 6:28,29 Jesus is asked....“What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Then you have nothing to worry about.. Just sit back in your couch and watch it all unfold on your t.v.. Wait for your rapture to beam you away from the mess.

jlay wrote:In 1 John 3:24 "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
So, 1 John, which is a guide for living the discipled life, list these two very specific commands.

What you have here is the ultimate goal of Christ's commandments but not a working definition.. If you divorce yourself from G-d's commandments then you are divorcing yourself from the mechanics of love... Love has a face... I'm sorry for the path you have chosen.