Trinitarian Theology

[RickD]

This link explains the Trinity as simply as possible, IMO. But, If one is not open, one will not see.

The Trinity Made Simple

[B. W.]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses

Here is the "BULK of the Gospel that Jesus taught!! One verse can identify it. Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
The Gospel is about the kingdom of God!! The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.
Jesus was 100% dead. He did not half die or part die. His Father raised him as we are going to be in the future "mortal will put on immortality"
Shalom

1stjohnny, This does not answer anything about the gospel as there is nothing to your answer.

Next, from what I gather from you ‘is’ that your point of view does not place any real value on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ due to Christ’s limited speaking on this topic and is only an important side note – nothing more?

What is the Kingdom of God?
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[1stjohn0666]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses

Here is the "BULK of the Gospel that Jesus taught!! One verse can identify it. Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
The Gospel is about the kingdom of God!! The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.
Jesus was 100% dead. He did not half die or part die. His Father raised him as we are going to be in the future "mortal will put on immortality"
Shalom

1stjohnny, This does not answer anything about the gospel as there is nothing to your answer.

All scholars agree with what I stated, the gospel of the kingdom of God IS the main theme of what Jesus taught!!

Next, from what I gather from you ‘is’ that your point of view does not place any real value on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ due to Christ’s limited speaking on this topic and is only an important side note – nothing more?

Maybe you missed this part of my post. "The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died."

What is the Kingdom of God?

Our final "hopeful" destination. Not some celestial place we "go to" like the idea that when we die we "go to" heaven. Jesus never taught we leave our bodies and "not surely die" The kingdom is yet a future event. It is inaugurated by Christ's 2nd coming. The kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous. If you want to find more about the kingdom do some comparative research with Daniel and Revelation. The book of Enoch even describes the kingdom of God (very interesting read)
Jesus Matt 6:9 and following "Thy kingdom come" ...etc.

[B. W.]

God did not die, nor can die. Immortal means "can't die" The "merely human" man Jesus died.

You don't understand the gospel message at all, as you comment suggest ignorance on this matter.

Therefore, as I and others have asked - explain the gospel message as you understand it now...and dispense with excuses

Here is the "BULK of the Gospel that Jesus taught!! One verse can identify it. Luke 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."
The Gospel is about the kingdom of God!! The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.
Jesus was 100% dead. He did not half die or part die. His Father raised him as we are going to be in the future "mortal will put on immortality"
Shalom

1stjohnny, This does not answer anything about the gospel as there is nothing to your answer.

All scholars agree with what I stated, the gospel of the kingdom of God IS the main theme of what Jesus taught!!

Next, from what I gather from you ‘is’ that your point of view does not place any real value on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ due to Christ’s limited speaking on this topic and is only an important side note – nothing more?

Maybe you missed this part of my post. "The death, and resurrection are important but when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died."

What is the Kingdom of God?

Our final "hopeful" destination. Not some celestial place we "go to" like the idea that when we die we "go to" heaven. Jesus never taught we leave our bodies and "not surely die" The kingdom is yet a future event. It is inaugurated by Christ's 2nd coming. The kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are synonymous. If you want to find more about the kingdom do some comparative research with Daniel and Revelation. The book of Enoch even describes the kingdom of God (very interesting read)
Jesus Matt 6:9 and following "Thy kingdom come" ...etc.

What then is the Kingdom of God?

How do You Enter?

Notice you said, "The death, and resurrection are important but" ... that but negates your claim of importance...

The rest of your comments demonstrate that you do not understand the gospel message of Christ
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[1stjohn0666]

What was the first command Jesus gave? Answer that and you will know!!

[B. W.]

What was the first command Jesus gave? Answer that and you will know!!

You have sin blocking the way and only God himself alone can save you from that...

Again - you refuse to answer a simple question that most Christians know by heart
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[1stjohn0666]

What was the first command Jesus gave? Answer that and you will know!!

You have sin blocking the way and only God himself alone can save you from that...

Again - you refuse to answer a simple question that most Christians know by heart
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It looks like a properly structured sentence to me to have a "but" in there LOL

[PaulSacramento]

What was the first command Jesus gave? Answer that and you will know!!

Do you love Jesus?

[B. W.]

...It looks like a properly structured sentence to me to have a "but" in there LOL

Notice it was you who said, "The death, and resurrection are important but" ...

Now read my comment again: That but in your sentence negates your claim of importance...
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[1stjohn0666]

BUT ... when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.

[B. W.]

BUT ... when this was discussed with great clarity it was only days before he died.

So in your opinion, important is not really that important...

That is a tactic of cultist, to deny the importance of the atonement of the cross that Jesus spoke of and the OT speaks of, so that people buy into a false 'jesus' that cannot save.

I also assume 1st johnny that you also think that you must do works to stay saved, or keep being saved or a definite maybe kind of saved - as do JW's, The Way groups, Mormons, etc and etc... so that their respective followers depend on those groups for all one's needs more than the bible.

Below is an answer to you form another thread that fits here...

If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.

Can I ask you something?
Who did Moses and Abraham see when speaking with God?

YHVH who is not Jesus

Look at these verses from the Jewish OT and the LXX...

Isa 48:15, 16, I, even I, have spoken, yea, I have called him; I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit. JPS

Notice The Lord calling the Lord, Lord and use of third person speech here regarding ‘even the Lord and His Spirit’ in the LXX quoted below...

Isa 48:15, 16, I have spoken, I have called, I have brought him, and made his way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I, and now the Lord, even the Lord, and his Spirit, hath sent me. LXX

Verses 13 and 14 (below) make it clear the speaker in verses 15 and 16 is God and not Isaiah...

Isa 48:13, 14, My hand also has founded the earth, and my right hand has fixed the sky: I will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX

Isa 48:15, 16 I spoke, and I called. I brought him, and I prospered his way. 16 Lead forward to me, and hear these things ! [not from the beginning in secret I have spoken] When it took place, [here I was]. And now the Lord, the lord , he sent me and his spirit. LXX Apostolic Greek text and direct word order…

Pretty clear you are wrong on your assumption 1st johnny as are all cultist that you gleaned your version of Jesus from…

Next...

Also with what is stated in Isaiah 48:13, 14, 15 , 16 please now note the below verses…

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' JPS

Psalms 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool… LXX

Mark 12:35-37, And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 "David himself said in the Holy Spirit, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET."' 37 "David himself calls Him 'Lord'; so in what sense is He his son?" And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him. NASB

The speaker in Psalms is identified by Jesus as really whom? So then next - the speaker in Isaiah is actually the preincarnate Jesus… who was sent by the Father as is the Holy Spirit…

Isa 48:15, 16, I, even I, have spoken, yea, I have called him; I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit. JPS
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[B. W.]

The below comments were posted on this Forum Thread too:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/po ... 22&t=33317

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Evidence for the Christian Orthodox Doctrine of the Divine Trinity is clearly portrayed in Isaiah chapter 48. For quick reference, I placed the proper names of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the text as well as a few biblical references to help the reader know how and why I placed their names there.

I also used the Septuagint version to help Cultist who try to use the LXX version to support cultist teachings in order to show that the LXX does not support their views about who Jesus is. The LXX supports the Jewish and English Versions of the text…not the Cultist versions.

Turn too Isaiah 48:12-17 – and notice that verses 12, 13 and 14 (below) make it clear the speaker in verses 15 and 16 is God and not Isaiah...

Isa 48:12. "Listen to Me (Son YHWH), O Jacob, even Israel whom I (Son YHWH) called; I (Son YHWH) am He, I (Son YHWH) am the first, I (Son YHWH) am also the last." NASB

The bible reveals plainly who the First and Last is – where – for starters…

Rev 1:17, 18, When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. NASB

Back to Isaiah:

Isa 48:13, 14, My hand (Son YHWH) also has founded the earth, and my right hand (Holy Spirit YHWH) has fixed the sky: I (Son YHWH) will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I (SON YHWH) have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX

Who Founded the Earth? Let’s See…

Proverbs 30:4, Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? NASB -- See also John 1:1, 2, 3, 14 as well too.

Then please note the John 3:13 comment made by Jesus concerning the One who has ascended and descended heaven… Proverbs 30:4 calls him who???

Back to Isaiah…

Isa 48:15, 16, I (Son YHWH) have spoken, I (Son YHWH) have called, I (Son YHWH) have brought him (Cyrus), and made his (Cyrus) way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me (the Son YHWH), and hear ye these words; I (Son) have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I (Son YHWH), and now the Lord (Father YHWH), even the Lord (Father YHWH), and His Spirit (Holy Spirit YHWH), hath sent me (Son YHWH). LXX.

Isa 48:17, "Thus says the LORD (Father YHWH), your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I (Father) am the LORD (Father YHWH) your God (Elohim – God the Majestic Plural One), who teaches you (Israel) to profit, Who leads you (Israel) in the way you should go." NASB

Next... please notice…

John 1:1, 2, 3, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and [God was the word]. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists. Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek text and direct word order

Look at these verses again…

Pro 30:4,5 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? 5, Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. NASB
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Isa 1:18 NKJV "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool."


An Aside note: Please look at Exodus 6:2, 3: "And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am (YHWH) the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God (Elohim) Almighty, but by My name (Nature-Character) LORD (YHWH) I was not known to them.

Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob did only knew God as Elohim (God-The Majestic Plural One) and not as YHWH. Moses wrote the Torah in hindsight up too Exodus 6:3-4 and used YHWH as well as Elohim to help describe the Plural self existing Nature and Characteristics of God. After Exodus, He revealed His name YHWH which covered all aspects of God's unique oneness. In other words,YHWH - reveals the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Careful attention to the context of a text actually helps bring to light the absolute unique nature of God's self existing nature proving his own words true -there is NONE LIKE HIM. He and His ways remain past finding out. He remains a mystery, yet knowable and unknowable.

[1stjohn0666]

Abraham knew God as El Shaddai.... God Almighty.
If you want to have 2 Yaweh's that is for you. Scripture never presents two Yaweh's, that would be two Gods. In all of scripture Jesus is NEVER YHVH

[B. W.]

Abraham knew God as El Shaddai.... God Almighty.
If you want to have 2 Yaweh's that is for you. Scripture never presents two Yaweh's, that would be two Gods. In all of scripture Jesus is NEVER YHVH

You have no answer regarding the use of the peculiar third person speech used in this text - do you?

Isa 48:12. "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last." NASB (Note Rev 1:17, 18c)

Isa 48:13, 14, My hand also has founded the earth, and my right hand has fixed the sky: I will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX (Note Hebrews 1:2 and John 1: 1, 2, 3, 14c)

Isa 48:15, 16, I have spoken, I have called, I have brought him (Cyrus), and made his (Cyrus) way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I , and now the LORD, even the Lord, and His Spirit, hath sent me. LXX.

Isa 48:17, "Thus says the LORD , your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God (Elohim – God the Majestic Plural One), who teaches you (Israel) to profit, Who leads you (Israel) in the way you should go." NASB
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[PaulSacramento]

Abraham knew God as El Shaddai.... God Almighty.
If you want to have 2 Yaweh's that is for you. Scripture never presents two Yaweh's, that would be two Gods. In all of scripture Jesus is NEVER YHVH

Do you believer that Jesus is the Word of God?
I mean that in the strict sense of what we read in GOJ 1:
That Jesus was the divine Logos incarnate-
The Deity of Jesus Christ

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The Witness John

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.