Evidence for God from Science

snorider wrote:Humans, for the most part want to help each other.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I do think that humans know it is better to help others than to harm. The reality is that they often act contrary to what they know they ought to do. In fact a lot of people want to help because it makes them look good, feel good about themselves, or assuage guilt. The bitter truth is that many if not most people want to help themselves. We could collectively end world hunger today with the resources available. Yet, it doens't happen. The uber wealthy don't feel guilty for living like kings and queens while tens of millions go hungry. Heck, the average Joe doesn't really care. If you took a survey and asked 100 people, "Are you doing all you can to help others?" what do you think the % would be?

Many people think that without a moral guide book the world will break out in anarchy.

They are wrong. Of course thinking that people acting morally without a guide book somehow invalidates the guide book is also wrong.

Yes, some of the unintelligent will find an excuse to cause havoc, no different than a person washing their sins every week that is already causing havoc

Intelligent people cause havoc as well. A lot of it.

Humans tend to want to be good people, religion gives them excuse to do bad things.

People find excuses to do bad things. Religion, money and more. That doesn't mean those things are bad. That means people are bad.

Christianity doesn't get off the hook either, the pope condemning condemn, abortion clinic bombings, all in the name of good.

This sentence makes no sense.

Now, you will say yes, these are extremists. Religion affects everything around us whether you know it or not, now most Christians are good, believe it or not most muslims are peaceful as well. The news only broadcasts the extremists.

Actually the news only broadcast a mere fraction of the atrocities committed by Muslims.

Now, what if we didn't have any religion until we discover what is true? Let's figure it out as a human species, not conflicting nations wasting human lives to prove their religion is correct.

But you see, you are espousing a religious position. And you are implying that your method, which desires to abolish religion is TRUE. You are claiming that truth lies in irradicating religion, which oddly is a religious position of its own. In fact in the past and today, some cultures took this position so far that they sought to irradicate religion through governmental power. Making it illegal to practice religion. I think someone already pointed out Stalin.

Obviously God did not make it easy if there are many conflicting religions on this planet claiming they are right.

I think you've got the finger of blame pointing the wrong direction. God didn't just tell us the truth. He sent the truth (John 14:6) and you'd do well to believe on Him.

Jlay, again, I apologize for tagging you with a belief (Calvinism) that, apparently, you totally disagree with. But, as per your statement ("The problem is that a sinner is dead in their sin, and completely incapable of doing any such thing. At, least incapable of following through on it."), perhaps you can understand why I jumped the gun on that. And I also think that one struggling with belief could have misunderstood your statement as well.

But you are misunderstanding me as well, by asserting a view that I definitely do NOT hold, but are (understandably) reacting to OTHERS who typically tack on salvation requirements that go way beyond the simple belief and confession mandated in Scripture. My entire point is that Romans 10:9-10 is: 1) available for ALL to be ABLE to do; 2) and at ANY time they so desire to do so; 3) That in doing what it says to do, one must be SINCERE, that their confession and repentance can't just be parts of some insincere, empty ritual (that is not heartfelt and truly believed) - that is just a "magical saying" that supposedly accomplishes their salvation. And no, there is NO specified AMOUNT or LEVEL of sorrow, and yet true repentance undoubtedly includes sincere sorrow and basic understanding that one has transgressed God's standards. Now, does one at salvation understand the DEPTH of their transgressions - NO! And I also am not saying we "MAKE Jesus," anything, but that we are accepting Him as He truly is (God, Resurrected Lord) - and even that does not mean that one will have any deep understanding of Him, in fact, initially one will only have a newbie's understanding of God.

Related to my point that one must be sincere in their belief, is what you obviously know, that it cannot be a mere intellectual one, as per the clear understanding that the Bible teaches that even the demons believe in Jesus' deity: "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!" (James 2:19). And so we know that mere intellectual belief does not save. In the NT, demons call Jesus the "Son of God" (Matthew 8:29; Mark 3:11, Luke 4:41), and "Son of the Most High God" (Luke 8:28; Mark 5:7).

Philip,

I do appreciate your feedback. And yes, I see how that statement could be taken that way. So, just to make it clear. A sinner is a sinner. Dead in sin. Lost. A sinner can reform their life. But this only makes them a reformed sinner, not saved.

Obviously, this is one of the most important topics. How one is saved is essential, and it is troubling today that so many have different ideas on how this transpires. And I think that we can certainly sharpen each other by discussing the topic.

First: Our tendency today is to try to systemitize salvation into steps. Working in children's ministry for over 11 years, you can't imagine the materials I see being promoted. A lot of this is to offer 'steps' the person is to go through.
Also, I see a lot of prooftexting. Granted, I do believe that there are verses that do stand alone, simply because they were written that way. John 3:16 is a summation. John 20:31 is much the same, although the verse begs us to read what John wrote. Another great one is Acts 16:31. Paul is asked a direct question, "Sirs, what MUST I do to be saved?" And Acts 16:31 is the answer. Of course it also tells us that they spoke the word of the Lord to them so that they would have the correct object of faith to believe on.

I too believe that 'faith' should be sincere. But faith in itself is just that. It is the fact that so many have substituted faith for formula, that we even question whether faith is 'sincere.'
I don't think there is a book more directed at leading sinners to Christ than the Gospel of John. He said, "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." (John 20:31)
John shows here that it is the object of belief that matters, and He provides us the information as to what we believe about Jesus and what we are trusting Him for.
Belief and faith is not simply having intellectual knowledge. It is trusting in that knowledge. The warnings from James are not to diminish the importance of faith or to argue that there are different kinds of faith. The warning from James is to BELIEVERS. He doesn't want believers to have a dead faith, but a faith that is living. Demons cannot be saved regardless of what they believe about Jesus. Demons don't have to be convinced that Jesus is the Christ. I'd say they believe it fully well. But it won't save them, because the Gospel is not for them.

Regarding repent. There is a great article called "Repentance, the Most Misunderstood Word in the Bible." I've read it many times and shared it with many others. I think it is essential, because so many preach repentance as reform. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf Here is the link. I think you will be blessed by reading it. If repent means to change one's mind, and I believe the evidence is overwhelming

I've met so many different people witnessing. I've met people who knew they were sinners, but didn't know how to be saved. They were totally convinced they were Hell bound, and they were without hope because they knew nothing they could do would buy them out of Hell or balance the scales. They even dismiss the work of Christ. This person needs to repent. They need to change their mind regarding who Jesus was and what He did. Be doing so, they are trusting that the life and work of Jesus is enough. And thus they are saved.
I've also met people who think they are good. They think they've lived a good life and that it really doesn't matter if they trust in Christ, because a good God would never send a good person to Hell. They need to repent of the notion that they are good, and that they are fit for heaven, and trust in Christ. You see that person has faith. Faith in the wrong object. Themself. They trust that they are good enough, and that God is grading on a curve.
I could go on, but I think you get the point.

There is power in the Gospel. It has the power to show a 'good' person they really aren't. It has the power to show a hopeless person that there is redemption in the cross. The Gospel is for both of these people.

We don't need to argue whether faith is "sincere." We just need to stop confusing all this other stuff for faith.

Demons cannot be saved regardless of what they believe about Jesus. Demons don't have to be convinced that Jesus is the Christ. I'd say they believe it fully well. But it won't save them, because the Gospel is not for them.

That's a good point. But demons made their choice when they joined the rebellion. So they had a choice as well. But it's quite interesting that they readily admit exactly who Jesus is. Of course, already knowing their destination, and excepting defiance, there would be little use in denying Him. And the statements where they address Jesus as the "Son of God" are obviously aimed directly at HIM, and not others they might deceive. In fact, we're told that Jesus Himself "gave them strict orders not to tell who He was." But they didn't just merely acknowledge Who He was, but also "fell down before Him." Now, I think it's obvious that demons, perhaps the ultimate and original rebels, desired to bow down to Jesus as in worship or respect - well knowing that they will eventually be tormented, forever and ever. I believe that they HAVE to bow down to Him, and also to acknowledge His Deity.

Most unsaved I run across either: 1) Don't even see their NEED of God or forgiveness - they can't see "what's the big deal?"; 2) They believe in the Karma god: that if one is much more "good" than they ever are bad, then (IF heaven exists) that they will go there. And related to #2, is the false belief that most religions - if not all - are just different paths to God. 3) The other group of unsaved I see are those firmly and deliberately resistant, who though rabidly deny it, obviously know God exists, else why would they be so angry about anything or person that references Him or Christianity.

Philip wrote:Most unsaved I run across either: 1) Don't even see their NEED of God or forgiveness - they can't see "what's the big deal?"; 2) They believe in the Karma god: that if one is much more "good" than they ever are bad, then (IF heaven exists) that they will go there. And related to #2, is the false belief that most religions - if not all - are just different paths to God. 3) The other group of unsaved I see are those firmly and deliberately resistant, who though rabidly deny it, obviously know God exists, else why would they be so angry about anything or person that references Him or Christianity.

We keep the same company!

FL

Philip wrote:
Most unsaved I run across either: 1) Don't even see their NEED of God or forgiveness - they can't see "what's the big deal?"; 2) They believe in the Karma god: that if one is much more "good" than they ever are bad, then (IF heaven exists) that they will go there. And related to #2, is the false belief that most religions - if not all - are just different paths to God. 3) The other group of unsaved I see are those firmly and deliberately resistant, who though rabidly deny it, obviously know God exists, else why would they be so angry about anything or person that references Him or Christianity.


FL wrote: We keep the same company!

FL

FL, let's both stay involved in that company, because else they aren't going to be exposed to a Christian perspective - or with whom we might be able to at least plant a few seeds. Most Christians seem entirely happy to "not leave the safety and homogeneous views within the choir loft."

Philip

Philip wrote:Most Christians seem entirely happy to "not leave the safety and homogeneous views within the choir loft."

Oh...but I must confess that I would love to hole myself up in some monastery somewhere and spend my days in the company of Christians alone. I have a nice baritone voice which makes me ideal for Gregorian chants...

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Philip wrote:Most Christians seem entirely happy to "not leave the safety and homogeneous views within the choir loft."

Oh...but I must confess that I would love to hole myself up in some monastery somewhere and spend my days in the company of Christians alone. I have a nice baritone voice which makes me ideal for Gregorian chants...

FL

And it doesn't hurt that you look like a monk.