Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote: FL is right. Something stinks, and you can't smell it.

Well...thank you! I find it interesting that snorider deleted the post I answered to here:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

snorider wrote:Could you point out a situation where I have jumped in on a forum thread and said something negative without replying to a question/post?

When I'm out in my day-to-day affairs, every once in a while someone will walk by me and I'll notice that they reek of cigarettes. They just stink! Their person, their clothes, give off this awful odor that follows them like the wake of a boat. When I used to smoke, I never knew that I smelled bad.

When I used to be an atheist, I would say the same things you now say about Christianity. I thought they were smart and showed the foolishness of religion, and when Christians stopped talking to me I assumed that my arguments were so good that they couldn't reply. I now understand that wise Christians just stop discussing with someone who is quarrelsome and unteachable, as per Mt 7.6.

So, to answer your question, above, you are negative in (almost) every single post. Every post! but you are presently unable to see that.

When I used to be a heavy smoker, I never realized that I stank...but I did! When I was an atheist, I never realized that I was closed-minded and hateful...but I was! You are in a similar position today. My prayer is that one day, you will have the insight to recognize this in yourself.

FL

This was the first time I saw a post from snorider where he was sensible. Unfortunately, he deleted the whole post and I only quoted this part:

Could you point out a situation where I have jumped in on a forum thread and said something negative without replying to a question/post?

So...snorider is able to be sensible. Not for long, and he doesn't want us to see it but the embryo is there.

FL

Sam1995 wrote: Ok, thanks for telling me that! Well, you answer your own question here. There is no evidence for the Greek Gods, but there is evidence for the God of Christianity. Do you actually have a point here or are you trying to make a fool out of me? You won’t achieve that if you are trying!

There isn't decent evidence for any God buddy.
If there is a God there is no reason to think he is the god depicted by the Christian religion.
Are you familiar with the "God of the Gaps"?

Ah, isn't it interesting that the four gospels were written 40-100 years after Jesus died? I'm familiar with Josephus, him and a few historians made a few short remarks about Jesus. Sure, Jesus probably was a real person, he influenced people but so did other prophets which is why we have other religions.

Sam1995 wrote: It’s not really interesting, if I’m honest. Never really got me excited inside, dates are not very exciting, if they are for you then that’s great! If you were familiar with Josephus and some other historians of the time then you would not have made your original point, because you have now changed your mind. Were you lying to me earlier Snorider? Of course other prophets influenced people, the whole premise now is figuring out who was right and I believe that Jesus was. Jesus was not a prophet, He was the messiah. And again, your atheist videos about God are made by people who reject the existence of God, the arguments are thus close-minded and one-sided. Stop using them. Reading through those “contradictions” simply shows me that. A) you know nothing of the differences between the OT and the NT and B) You don’t understand Biblical context.

Obviously context is important: Matthew 10:34

Otherwise you get cults and churches like the the West Boro Bapchist church, they are ready the same thing as you but interpreting it completely differently from you.

The Priest's job is to interpret the bible, why is that most Christian's haven't read the Bible?
http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... ire-bible/

You're right, CONTEXT, the bible needs interpretation for most people.

Staying on subject of Divine Command Morality, many do not understand the Bible, but follow what they are told by a priest or a cult member interpreting it for them.

Have you ever gone to mass and heard the a Priest talk about the following? :

Leviticus 20:9

Judges 21:10-24

Numbers 31:7-18

Deuteronomy 17:12

Exodus 21:15

Chronicles 15:12-13

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Deuteronomy 22:20-21

Exodus 31:12-15

Samuel 12:11-14

Leviticus 20:13

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Genesis 22:10




Just to name a few, yes, they are out of context, but many of these describe death as a punishment without a trial, driven by Divine Command Morality.
I can provide more examples...

Very Christian like, I can see how the Westboro Church in their twisted way can interpret the Bible to cause harm, look at some of these passages.

Sam1995 wrote: Tell me about the muslim, hindu and buddhist apologists that you know about. How many are there? Are they well known? Do they really stand up for their faith?

Your point is mute, you're comparing ridiculous with ridiculous.

How do you think this would have looked 2000 thousand years ago? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEc_jeGBVxs
I would have been a believer.
The Bible was an explanation for things we didn't understand, as time goes on Science has been providing us with answers. The Christian church was furious with Galileo when he proved the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. This isn't the first time, the Pope also endorsed Evolution.. http://www.bible.ca/tracks/b-pope-accepts-evolution.htm
2000 years ago, the Bible had answers for creation, how things were, our understanding of the world. How much of that is true in comparison to Science today?
Noah's Arch, Adam and Eve.. Really? "It comes down to cherry picking now, well that doesn't make sense but here is something Science hasn't explained so I suppose God did it. "

Sam1995 wrote: First of all, how do you know that there is no good evidence to back up Jesus’ claims? I think that’s absurd nonsense. Also, it would’ve looked great, the difference bewteen Dynamo and Jesus is that Dynamo’s walking on water has been shown up for what it really was hundreds of times, do you honestly believe Dynamo walked on water? Jesus wouldn’t have had the equipment to “fake” walking on water.

I was giving you an example of something that could be perceived as a miracle 2000 years ago.
An Earthquake at the right time, a solar eclipse were signs of "God" in ancient times. Without understanding a simple thumb trick can be perceived as magic.

It's unfortunate for the many witches that were burned at the steak in the name of the Christian religion..
Don't deny that innocent people died because of ignorance, it happened. Divine Command Morality. Exodus 22:17

Sam1995 wrote: Also, saying that Bible used to have answers for creation and no longer does is also absurd nonsense. Science and Christianity are not opposed and sir, if you try to say otherwise then you, frankly, are an absolute idiot. The ROMAN CATHOLIC church was angry with Galileo, what’s your point?

What's my point? THE CHURCH WAS ANGRY WITH GALILEO AND SCIENCE. My point? The church fought tooth and nail, Science won in the end, the church STOPPED FIGHTING SCIENCE. Hence why they accept evolution to this day, the Church accepts Science easier because of Galileo.

The Bible becomes a little more ridiculous as Science progresses.

If there is a God, which I admit there may be, there is no reason to believe he is the Christian God, or any God depicted by any religion throughout human history.

Sam1995 wrote: Doesn’t provide any sort of argument against the existence of God. Once again, I am not a roman catholic so I am not going to defend the Pope’s views. I believe in natural selection as what Darwin observed at the time, that people and animals change over time within their own environments, that’s simple logic surely. But I do not believe that it accounts for itself. Do you know ANYTHING about old earth creationism?

The reason why the Pope admitted to evolution is because of the evidence, the evidence for old earth creationism is slim to none proven by not one but multiple fields of Science.

Creationists have challenged Evolution numerous times in Federal Court, they lose and for a good reason.

I'll be happy to provide many court cases, if you're interested.

Sam1995 wrote:The Bible still has answers for creation. How things are. It’s still true in light of science today. Noah’s ark, Adam and Eve. Really! Your final quote makes reference to the age old “God of the gaps theory.” Put simply, I know God exists through the things that I already do understand. The way the laws of physics work. The way different elements and scientific mechanisms of our universe work. Every single one of them points towards a designer and to deny the existence of that designed appears to be ludicrous. I know God exists because of the things that I do understand, not because of the things that I do not. Your argument, once again, does not work.

I've read this everything on this website, once again you have someone interpreting for you, persuading you to think a certain way.

Sam1995 wrote: Ok, let’s talk about Christianity in general. Witch burning, done in disobedience to Christ, not in obedience to His command. What’s your point?

You can't comprehend my point, I wish I was a better communicator.

"Witch burning, done in disobedience to Christ, not in obedience to His command."

You really don't see anything wrong with this? Really?



Watch this, maybe you'll understand my point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E15IC3YKv8g

Sam1995 wrote: Colossians 3:11

Talk about taking things out of context...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

We are adults, you don't think that people should take responsibility for their actions?
Confessing to a priest or Jesus rather than confessing and asking forgiveness to the person you hurt works for you?
Complete cop out the way the Christian faith works.

Sam1995 wrote: When did I ever say that we won’t?
You ask other people for forgiveness too, like any normal person. Snorider, you very clearly know nothing about Christian faith and how it works within life.

You can have your opinions and presumptions about my religious faith, but you really aren't answering any of my questions are you?
No, I haven't always been agnostic, I was a confirmed Catholic at 17.

Sam1995 wrote: Are there any people like that?

Many...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tribes+cut+off+from+society

snorider wrote:People of other religions that are completely devout to God, lived a better life than me and know of Jesus but choose not to partake in Christianity because of their family's beliefs would by definition go to Hell, for not accepting Jesus. John 14:6

Yes.

Completely rational...

It is, you’re right. People have the opportunity to choose for themselves what they believe.

Sam1995 wrote:How many other religions experience God the way that Christianity does?

You have one perspective. You must open your mind. You seem intelligent, I recommend you get away from the tunnel vision you're in.

Sam1995 wrote:Christianity, unlike any other religion, can answer any questions put towards it.

You aren't qualified to answer this question, you have only experienced Christianity.

This is very similar to 1., however, I'll entertain it: the greek God Apollo (the sun) is more tangible than your Christian God, remember. Jesus was a messiah - human, one amongst many throughout history, we are talking Gods, not sons of... I suppose you could argue "The Trinity" Yes, Jesus said he was God, he also referred to his Father throughout the Bible... Quite a few Messiah's refer to themselves as God at points.

You haven’t made a point here. Or, if you have. It isn’t clear.

Hopeless? - Well, as someone that has experienced both sides I disagree.
When I became a non-believer, my life became richer, knowing that my life is short and precious, I treasure my days on this Earth more.

Sam1995 wrote:That depends on what your perspective of life is. You have become corrupted by the world and thus enjoy the things of the world. You will be held accountable for that before God when you die.

"That depends on your perspective of life". No it doesn't, it's stated very clearly, Chronicles 15:12
if you are a non-believer or if you don't believe in Jesus, John 14:6

Defined by the Christian Bible, if you do not believe in Jesus specifically, you cannot find your way to Heaven. The billions that live good lives and believe in God but do not believe in Jesus will not see Heaven. This is absolutely ridiculous, and completely irrational. If you can't see this, you have tunnel vision.

A moral being?

Sam1995 wrote:Animals were created by God as well as humans. Are you stupid?

Why I'm no longer a Christian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsAZSz2Yb_8

-Jordan

I suppose to reply to your previous response by quoting everything that you say and providing specific responses would be to "fight fire with fire." That's no real way to go about things. What I can see from reading each of our responses over is what I see in terms of differences between many people of the "new atheist" regime and Christianity. Two opposing world views based on subjective interpretations of the same evidence. For example, when you say that there isn't decent evidence for God, I do not believe that to be true. Cosmologically, morally and empirically, I believe that there is evidence for God in everything. Although I am not an advocate of the "God of the gaps theory," because I see evidence for God's existence in the things that I can understand. I have never been to mass, or heard a priest, I am not a Catholic, so I can't provide you with any sort of response to that area of the discussion, perhaps somebody else can. I don't find your arguments about the Church valid. Church is people, people aren't perfect, therefore people make mistakes. We can excuse that in some cases. Thank you for the compliment, however to say that I suffer from "tunnel-vision" is again a subjective statement. If there were sufficient evidence for the existence of any other god apart from that of the God of Christianity (and by evidence I mean in all regards of the word) then I would be open-minded to a discussion/debate about the existence of that God. However I see evidence much more so for the existence of the God of Christianity compared to any other from of gods.

To conclude, I won't be partaking in another large response with mis-quotations and mindless bashing at one and other. Although [1 Peter 3:15] explains that I should provide a defence with evidence for my faith, [2 Timothy 2:23] explains that we should not involve ourselves in pointless arguments, which is what this is becoming. Like I said, "fighting fire with fire."
You can take this as me effectively "copping out" or submitting defeat or whatever you like, I'm simply making it clear that your arguments and my arguments are subjective. Therefore we will never get anywhere by arguing those points out, apart from making it ever more clear what we believe, why we believe it and why we oppose the opposing view.

God bless,

SB

jlay wrote:This is hillarious. You'll never see Dec. 25th mentioned in the bible, or anywhere by the Christian church until the Roman empire merged Christianity with their pagan festivals. So, what are you trying to prove here? Or, do you even know? The date Dec. 25th is not held as the actual birthday of Jesus.

Have you read any of this thread other than the last few posts? Yes I'm familiar that the dates are not exact. The point is that there are several prior messiahs that are similar to Jesus.

jlay wrote: The Gospels were all written during the times of the lives of contemporaries. If Jesus died in 33 a.d., then 40 years would be the max. We have Paul's letter which date much closer and support the Gospels.
What is interesting is that none of the Gospels, or Acts directly mention the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Mark 13:2 makes a predictive reference, but never once makes claim of it being fulfilled. There is simply no further reason to hold to the later dates, unless one just stubbornly holds to skepticism for skepticism's sake.

Well, if you want to get specific, Jesus died on the cross around 30 AD not 33 AD

Paul was not there for the Resurrection.., IT'S ALL HEARSAY.

Let's go through the timeline bud..
32 AD Paul Converted - Jesus Appears to him.
35 AD Paul met Peter & James in Jerusalem
51 AD Paul Preached at Corinth (hence the Bible verses).


One man that didn't witness his resurrection, the gospels appear much later, that the best you have? "Jesus appeared to me, trust what I say?".
The Mormon religion is based on the same thing.


Answer me this, if Jesus is so righteous why did he only allow his existence to be known to a small group of people? In an area that that wrote very little?

If you don't believe in me you're going to hell, you better believe in me or else. What kind of God works that way given what we know about the Universe today?

Do you believe in any of these Gods? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

If not why? If you had grown up as a Greek, you would be worshipping the God's they believed in.

jlay wrote:You only make yourself look like a fool by continuing to mention this. You should at least have a basic idea of what you are talking about. No Bible believing Christian belives that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. Your skepticism is built on ignorance. Does that sound like a good foundation? FL is right. Something stinks, and you can't smell it.

I read most every thread on this forum, you are good on the evolutionary threads. You didn't read this thread from beginning to end, you are attacking me on one point, and an easy point. I know Jesus wasn't exactly born on the 25th, my point was he was born with the same conditions of many other messiahs throughout history, if you had read the entire thread you would have caught that.

"something stinks", what are you, 12?

There may be a God but there is no reason to think he is the God depicted in any religion on this planet. My personal belief is that if there is a God he started the Universe, but nothing more, no interventions, we aren't special, as vast as the Universe is, life will form somewhere.






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Agnostic,
-Jordan

There are those that don't believe because they truly don't see any evidence to believe.
There are those that don't beleive because they have been scarred by religion and the pain runs deep.
There are those that don't believe because they have not been shown.
I am sure I am missing some.
Then there are those that don't believe because they don't want to.
I can respect ALL those types BUT what I don't understand is someone that doesn't believe because they don't want to BUT the continue to "harass" ( forgive me if this is to strong a term) those that do believe and try their best to give a reasonable view for why they believe.