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Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:17 am
by PaulSacramento
B. W. wrote:1stjohn0666 wrote:Are you people trying to get me to believe in the "modalism, or Sebellianism" formula of the one God?
No - you need to know the real Jesus Christ...
Because it is written...
Psalms 118:8, 9 - Psalms 146:3, 4, 5, 6 - John 1:1, 3 - Col 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10 and Rev 1:17, 18 - Isaiah 48:12, 13 and note again John 1:1, 2, 3, 14
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And do we need to go any further? seriously?
At this stage it is not a question of not understanding, it is not wanting to understand.
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:36 am
by 1stjohn0666
In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:59 am
by B. W.
PaulSacramento wrote:And do we need to go any further? seriously?
At this stage it is not a question of not understanding, it is not wanting to understand.
Psalms 118:8, 9 - Psalms 146:3, 4, 5, 6 - John 1:1, 3 - Col 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10 and Rev 1:17, 18 - Isaiah 48:12, 13 and note again John 1:1, 2, 3, 14
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:23 am
by Sam1995
1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.
What's your point?
SB
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:36 am
by RickD
1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.
from:
http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
Modalism
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.
Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:48 am
by Sam1995
RickD wrote:1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.
from:
http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
Modalism
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.
Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
SB
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:57 pm
by 1stjohn0666
If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:59 pm
by PaulSacramento
1stjohn0666 wrote:If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.
Can I ask you something?
Who did Moses and Abraham see when speaking with God?
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:05 pm
by 1stjohn0666
YHVH who is not Jesus
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:37 pm
by B. W.
PaulSacramento wrote:1stjohn0666 wrote:If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.
Can I ask you something?
Who did Moses and Abraham see when speaking with God?
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
Look at these verses from the Jewish OT and the LXX...
Isa 48:15, 16,
I, even I, have spoken, yea, I have called him; I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit. JPS
Notice The Lord calling the Lord, Lord and use of third person speech here regarding ‘even the Lord and His Spirit’ in the LXX quoted below...
Isa 48:15, 16,
I have spoken, I have called, I have brought him, and made his way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I, and now the Lord, even the Lord, and his Spirit, hath sent me. LXX
Verses 13 and 14 (below) make it clear the speaker in verses 15 and 16 is God and not Isaiah...
Isa 48:13, 14,
My hand also has founded the earth, and my right hand has fixed the sky: I will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX
Isa 48:15, 16
I spoke, and I called. I brought him, and I prospered his way. 16 Lead forward to me, and hear these things ! [not from the beginning in secret I have spoken] When it took place, [ here I was]. And now the Lord, the lord , he sent me and his spirit. LXX Apostolic Greek text and direct word order…
Pretty clear you are wrong on your assumption 1st johnny as are all cultist that you gleaned your version of Jesus from…
Please see this Thread too for further info:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/po ... 22&t=33317
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Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:11 pm
by 1stjohn0666
Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:26 am
by Sam1995
1stjohn0666 wrote:Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.
How can you worship Jesus if He is effectively "below" God the Father as you are putting it?
SB
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:51 pm
by 1stjohn0666
Sam1995 wrote:1stjohn0666 wrote:Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.
How can you worship Jesus if He is effectively "below" God the Father as you are putting it?
SB
Here is a "trinitarian" link, that will enlighten you as I am in agreement with the facts.
http://www.xenos.org/essays/worship.htm
The saints are "worshiped" Rev 3:9
Abigail "worshiped" David,1 Sam 25:23.
Both YHWH and the king are "worshiped" 1 Chron 29:20
"woship" is an elastic term. We as Christians are to put God first and give him the "worship" he deserves.
As for being "prayed" to, both Jesus and the Father are prayed to!! If being prayed to is a claim that you are God... then the nation of Israel must be God Isa 45:14
Rev 5:11-13 "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
John 14:13 "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." There is NO argument that it is correct to pray to Jesus!!
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:27 pm
by Sam1995
Are you actually being serious here? To try and tell me that john 14:13 does not provide a basis on which to pray to Jesus is absurd nonsense.
So when people pray to Jesus in acts 1:24, that's wrong is it? Go and have a look at the Greek transcript of Acts 1:24 and you will find that the Greek word used for Lord is Κύριε (Kyrie). The word means Jesus, I'm not going to go any further with this, I am actually annoyed that you believe what you replied with.
Also, in terms of being worshiped, of course Jesus is worthy of worship - I suggest you actually study some of Paul's writings, analyse your findings and then tell me your view. Jesus is worthy of worship, He's the one who took YOUR PLACE, He's the one that said to Pilot on the platform "take me, and let them have Barabbas," He's the one who was whipped, tortured, had a crown of thorns placed on His head and then nailed to a cross! Why? For YOUR sake! For your sin and for your opportunity to have eternal and everlasting life! I have no need to proceed any further with this discussion in that respect. There IS NO and NEVER WILL BE any argument against that.
SB
Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:52 am
by PaulSacramento
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
So the writer of the GOJ is in error when He says that Jesus said that NO ONE has ever seen God, is that what you are saying?
Because of it was God that spoke to Abe and Moses directly, ie: they saw Him, then either the writer of John or Jesus is wrong.