Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:You know guys what Einstein said?

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Well said.
Knowledge is knowing what you know, but imagination is wanting to know what you don't know.

And this is from Newton.

"To myself I am only a child playing on the beach, while vast oceans of truth lie undiscovered before me. "

bippy123 wrote: Pro, on the contrary, the people who don't know about him would be the most surprised to meet him,and by his personality that is the way he wants it. I gave the example of the 5 year old for a reason. It shows the arrogance of the kid in thinking that he would know what is good for him and what is bad for him compared to his parents who love him but have more wisdom and experience then him on these issues. Now imagine an all loving God who is infinitely more wise and loving then those parents, and hopefully you will get the picture as to why it's rediculous for us to judge him.
A finite being trying to judge an infinite God??????????
Is that very rational or even reasonable?

Didn't Jesus himself come down and suffer for us? Did he not come down as the poorest of poor?
Did he not allow himself to take on the weight of the sins of the world?
Satan is all for no 1
Selfish, uncaring, vain, arrogant, stubborn and a power monger.

Going by the title of the thread and general gist of these sort of threads the problem is not with Jesus, it's with the OT baggage that is associated with him.

One can imagine an angry five year old with loving parents and extend that to a vision of angry humans with a loving parent. One can also imagine an angry five year old with rather unpleasant parents and extend that to a vision of angry humans with a rather poor parent. To me it's not so much people judging God that is the problem, it's people judging God as something other than good/loving/wonderful. The thread title is one of judgement to me, do you judge God worthy of worship or not. No one bats an eyelid here when God is judged as good, something I won't type here hits the fence when God is judged as bad.

Proinsias wrote:

bippy123 wrote: Pro, on the contrary, the people who don't know about him would be the most surprised to meet him,and by his personality that is the way he wants it. I gave the example of the 5 year old for a reason. It shows the arrogance of the kid in thinking that he would know what is good for him and what is bad for him compared to his parents who love him but have more wisdom and experience then him on these issues. Now imagine an all loving God who is infinitely more wise and loving then those parents, and hopefully you will get the picture as to why it's rediculous for us to judge him.
A finite being trying to judge an infinite God??????????
Is that very rational or even reasonable?

Didn't Jesus himself come down and suffer for us? Did he not come down as the poorest of poor?
Did he not allow himself to take on the weight of the sins of the world?
Satan is all for no 1
Selfish, uncaring, vain, arrogant, stubborn and a power monger.

Going by the title of the thread and general gist of these sort of threads the problem is not with Jesus, it's with the OT baggage that is associated with him.

One can imagine an angry five year old with loving parents and extend that to a vision of angry humans with a loving parent. One can also imagine an angry five year old with rather unpleasant parents and extend that to a vision of angry humans with a rather poor parent. To me it's not so much people judging God that is the problem, it's people judging God as something other than good/loving/wonderful. The thread title is one of judgement to me, do you judge God worthy of worship or not. No one bats an eyelid here when God is judged as good, something I won't type here hits the fence when God is judged as bad.

Because of the examples being used to judge God as bad are rediculous, such as the one you bring up about the OT supposed baggage. Your not gonna bring up the Canaanite children of the OT are you?
You know , the ones who are in heaven now?
This again what happens when beings of finite knowledge judge the objectively good moral law giver.
I could see it now. Some of the Hebrews in bondage in Egypt asking themselves why God allowed them to be in bondage to suffer in anguish this long. I can also see some of the Hebrew slaves like Joshua telling the others that we cannot judge God because we can't possibly see his full purpose.
Everything that happened in the OT was for the messiah to come to earth as the suffering g servant , to come to us not as an arrogant child with a silver spoon in his mouth but a baby born in a manger, to live as the poorest of us, to evengalize going to door to door with no permanent place to live, instead relying on the kindness of strangers to allow him to stay the night, and if not , then spending the night out on the streets, then suffering the ultimate of humiliation, torture and the. Death by crucifixion just so we can have the opportunity to be with him forever.

This is the being I want to spend the rest of eternity with, don't you pro?
When I read the bible (OT and NT) with my mind and heart , I sometimes have a hard time waiting for the day that I want to be with my beloved. My lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Or maybe u want the other guy?
He's brash, arrogant, evil, self serving, conniving, heartless.

You see proinsias, it's not only eternal life that matters. It's the quality of that eternal life that matters.
I want to spend eternity with the one being that loves me like no other being could ever love me.
Why would any rational person want anything else.

Doctor Antony Flew was the most influential atheist of the last half of the 20th. Century and he shocked the atheist world not only when he left atheism but also when he wrote a book called "there is a God".
His best friend Gary Habermas prayed that he would make the full conversion from belief in an I personal God to belief I. The personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you wAtch one of his final video Interviews I believe that you can see why he fought the conversion from desist to Christianity. When he was asked if he believed in an eternal life he said "I sure hope not", which told me that he feared living eternally in heaven because he thought he would get bored out of his mind. I pray that he was speaking out of ignorance because he was probably one of the nicest guys out there . God can forgive ignorance, but that's afor another thread.

The God of the bible is someone that I want to be with forever because his love for us is perfect agape love, if it wasn't then Jesus would have said "the heck with their sins , I don't need this ridicule or tortures, let me get back to. Y throne in heaven", but he didn't because he agape loves us all .

I have no idea what's going to happen when I die Bippy. To be honest I don't think any of us do.

Surely you can see why something like the destruction of Cannan might be a problem for some? I've heard Christians on this very board say they struggled for a long time with certain parts of the bible. Some people persevere, some don't. The problem of evil certainly seems to one of the big reasons that prevented Antony Flew from seeing truth in Christianity.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins" - Antony Flew

Yes, Flew did fall away from atheism but he was still judging the Christian God pretty harshly.

Proinsias wrote:I have no idea what's going to happen when I die Bippy. To be honest I don't think any of us do.

Surely you can see why something like the destruction of Cannan might be a problem for some? I've heard Christians on this very board say they struggled for a long time with certain parts of the bible. Some people persevere, some don't. The problem of evil certainly seems to one of the big reasons that prevented Antony Flew from seeing truth in Christianity.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins" - Antony Flew

Yes, Flew did fall away from atheism but he was still judging the Christian God pretty harshly.

Proinsias, just because you believe that you don't think anyone knows what will happen when we die doesn't mean that no one knows what will happen when we die. If you remember from one of his last interviews that he said that if he had become a theist he would have become a Christian , as that is the one that made the most sense to him out of the major theistic faiths out there. Of course Christians have struggled with some parts of the bible, as most of the Old Testament prophets did. This isn't an anomaly. In fact the name Israel means to struggle or wrestle with God.

We are living in a finite universe and to expect any human being to understand the full workings of an infinite, eternal
God is an impossible thing to expect.

And yes when we look at cannan from a short term way, I can understand why it might cause some problems, but you gotta remember those people were sacrificing babies to their pagan Gods, and if they had been allowed to go on those same kids would have grown up to kill babies the same way their parents were allowed to, plus they probably would have gotten many of the Hebrews into it. God definitely had a divine plan for his people. I also look at it the same way William lane Craid does, with having perfect middle knowledge and knowing all possible outcomes knew what had to be done. Those kids right now are in heaven with their creator who loves them more than we can possibly understand. It also says in the bible that God doesn't rejoice from the suffering of even one human being. He is a God of love, unlike Satan who rejoices in the suffering and anguish of all people. The problem of evil was never a problem for me because I always believed in my heart that God has our best interests at heart. If he didn't Jesus would never have left his throne in heaven to come to earth to live a sinless life, to be ridiculed, rejected, spat on, tortured and finally crucified if he didn't love us with all of his being.

My moms been in a semi-coma for 1 year now, my dad just got diagnosed with cancer and I didn't once blame God for this . If it would have happened when I was a teen I might have reacted differently, but it took a dark night of the soul to help me to understand how Important Gods love is to all of us.

The shroud of turin might help you a bit more if you are not sure what happens when you die.

I have mentioned here that my grandfather was saved from being buried alive in Egypt from 7 people. 2 days before his aunt called him up and told him that she had a dream that Saint Joseph would save him from murder. My grandfather was a very practical man that laughed at her dream. 2 days later 7 of his coworkers at the convenience store he managed tried to bury him alive at a very remote part of the beach . When they had thrown him into the pit they saw an old man with a cane who had an intense flowing out of him, with light coming out if his eyes brighter than anything they had ever seen before, and he descended upon the 7 would be murderers with super human speed. They got so scared that they ran away, leaving their shovels and hats behind. When my grandfather came out of the hole to thank the old man, he vanished into thin air.

Then my grandfather remembered what his aunt told him. Suffice to say my grandfather never laughed at his aunts dreams again after this.

Could my grandfather still have doubted her dream. Sure but it would have been a rediculous skepticism at that point for him, and yet he still could have doubted it. God gives us all free will to accept or reject him, and I have gone through my own trial, and yes many Christians have certain weaknesses, but the problem of evil was never a problem to me, to me Gods love has never been as crystal clear as it is right now.

If you want to find Christ he leaves us many breadcrumbs, but we have to make the choice to start following these breadcrumbs. Free will , it's a doozy, but without it there is no love.

Getting back to Flew, I truly believe that he was absolutely mortified with the prospect of eternal life, and it was crystal clear when he was asked if he believed in an afterlife and he responded by saying "I certainly hope not". He didn't say he didn't believe in an afterlife, he said he hoped there wasn't one. This shows that he was looking at an eternal life from a short term materialistic aspect. He was scared of being bored out of his mind for eternity. I know I would never be bored getting to know all of the wonders of an eternal, infinite God .

MAGSolo wrote:and if so, why

Because he is the infinite, eternal, self sustaining , Creator/Designer/Sustainer of our Universe who lovingly and very deliberately gave us a place called Earth to be our home so we can have opportunity to engage in a dynamic, personal relationship with Him and to revere him for demonstrating his historically confirmed great love gift of leaving his eternal home to enter time and space on our Planet to willfully surrender himself --- to the point of surrendering to a very heinous slow death as the basis for reconciling us back to himself thru personal sins forgiven followed by a distinct measurable amazing Born Again experience of our very Soul .

Creation of the Universe from nothing and Redemption of our Souls..are the two greatest miraculous feats that should move us toward as much closeness to God as possible and in so doing...we are returning his love (the same that every Parent of a child hopes their child will volitionally choose to do) . THAT is what earthly life is fundamentally about , and has great eternal implications (for the better or worse, as we choose) . To not desire a closer relationship to our very own Creator is the epitomie of self centeredness and idolatry of Self .

CallMeDave wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:and if so, why

Because he is the infinite, eternal, self sustaining , Creator/Designer/Sustainer of our Universe who lovingly and very deliberately gave us a place called Earth to be our home so we can have opportunity to engage in a dynamic, personal relationship with Him and to revere him for demonstrating his historically confirmed great love gift of leaving his eternal home to enter time and space on our Planet to willfully surrender himself --- to the point of surrendering to a very heinous slow death as the basis for reconciling us back to himself thru personal sins forgiven followed by a distinct measurable amazing Born Again experience of our very Soul .

Creation of the Universe from nothing and Redemption of our Souls..are the two greatest miraculous feats that should move us toward as much closeness to God as possible and in so doing...we are returning his love (the same that every Parent of a child hopes their child will volitionally choose to do) . THAT is what earthly life is fundamentally about , and has great eternal implications (for the better or worse, as we choose) . To not desire a closer relationship to our very own Creator is the epitomie of self centeredness and idolatry of Self .

Amen Dave

MAGSolo wrote:and if so, why

[You are worthy, our Lord and God,to receive glory and honor and power,for you created all things,and by your will they were createdand have their being. - Revelation 4:11 NIV]

For many people the stories from the old testament that describe children being killed come across as offensive because it is assumed that the children never got a chance to decide if they would follow God or not so it appears that God was being unfair but, maybe we are simply looking at things from a very finite perspective.
God made our bodies and he made the being that inhabits that fleshly vehicle. It was written that if genetics were all that made someone worthy that God could raise up more from stone. This is a telling truth here. If God wishes he can remake the souls of those children into any body at any time he desires. Some feel that the children get an automatic pass into heaven and that may be true, I don't know but minimally I can know that God is love and fair and if he wants to let the children have a chance at making the decision to follow him or not then he can certainly reform them into new bodies either in the times since they died or maybe in the 1000 year reign of Christ to come.
Now doesn't that perspective work with a loving God?
One of the other telling points about our living being and God was the point made about husbands and wives in the new testament. Many wondered whose wife a woman was when they reached heaven since she had been a wife to many brothers and the answer was that she was not a wife to anyone in heaven. Our beings are each unique indiviuals before God and we will have no earthly / fleshly ties to each other in the heavenly estate.

Mat 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Each of us if we make it to the heavenly estate will exist as the angels do whose father is God and whose family is every other being who God has made. There will no longer be a Jew or a gentile or a genetic brother or mother. God may have made man for his pleasure but because we were formed in his image then it is logical that it would also become our pleasure too.

MAGSolo wrote: A God of love, compassion, grace, and justice? If God was actually any of those things, the world would not be in the terrible shape it is today. Adam and Eve sinned against God because they were deceived by Satan. God could have shown love, compassion, and grace and simply absolved them of their transgression. Instead he did not show compassion, choosing instead to curse Adam and Eve

God did show compassion and covered Adam & Eve in animal skin by the shedding of blood to atone for their sin. A picture of Jesus who shed His blood on the cross and will in time cover us in white robes of righteousness. Compassionate & Loving.

I worship God with all my heart, I love him with all my heart, and he is my best friend!

Proinsias wrote:I have no idea what's going to happen when I die Bippy. To be honest I don't think any of us do.

Surely you can see why something like the destruction of Cannan might be a problem for some? I've heard Christians on this very board say they struggled for a long time with certain parts of the bible. Some people persevere, some don't. The problem of evil certainly seems to one of the big reasons that prevented Antony Flew from seeing truth in Christianity.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins" - Antony Flew

Yes, Flew did fall away from atheism but he was still judging the Christian God pretty harshly.

A brilliant book that I read was "Is God a moral monster". Very helpful in this area

MAGSolo wrote:and if so, why

Why?.

Because he knew me before creation and he loved me even then.
Because he created a universe for me so I can see its awesome beauty.
Because he knows every item of my being and still has unconditional love for me.
Because he wants a relationship with me.
Because he died for me when I did not know him.
Because he wants to spend eternity with me.
Because his hands and feet were pierced for my transgressions.
Because he was led like a lamb to the slaughter to save my soul.
Because he was marred beyond recognition so that I will have salvation.
Because without him I do not want to exist.
Because with him I am strong
Because with him, Satan has no hold on me.
Because with him I will face the defeated enemy of death with no fear
Because he is my Lord and my God.

I want to worship him with all of my being and for all of my existence.

I think the god that some people create is NOT worthy of worship, this is true.
I think that sometimes people create that god so that they do NOT have to worship and, perhaps more importantly, obey.
It's easy to rebel against a god that we have made a monster in our own eyes.