Problem of evil

[MAGSolo]

MAGSolo wrote:
That question makes absolutely no sense. I think its pretty easy to know if something is objectively evil. Would you want that deed to happen to you? Would you ever want to be raped, murdered, robbed, or tortured?

Actually, those that enjoy sadism and masochism would answer, "yes".

PaulSacramento wrote:I think it is clear that MAGSolo doesn't view the argument for free will as a valid one.

MAGSolo wrote:
its not a valid argument. Humans having free will does not mean that God has to just let them do whatever they want. God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it. They still had free will to do what they wanted, God just stopped them before they were able to do so. I dont see why God has to let people hurt other people just because thats what they want to do. Lets take the case where the mother cooked her baby in the oven. Are you saying that God watched her cook her baby in an oven simply because its what she wanted to do? God said "I can stop this baby from being cooked to death, but Im not going to because thats what this lady wants to do"? And this meets your criteria for being good?

So, God is not loving and good because He allows evil. But, God would be loving and good if He would " very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it."?
So, let me get this straight. You're saying God is not good because He allows people to do "evil" things to other people. But, God would be good and loving if He just killed those who were going to inflict "evil" upon others?

Well I think all evil people should die. Why should they live? They serve no purpose, provide no benefit to humanity. If I could I would definitely kill all people who harmed innocent people. I dont want to bog the topic down with that though. In response to your question, yes, I think God either does not exist or is either not good or not all powerful because he does nothing about human suffering on a large or small scale.

[MAGSolo]

God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it.

Yeah, that is a heck of a statement...

God had no problem with having entire nations wiped out on several occassions down to children and infants because their societies were evil. What is the big deal about him killing someone that is about to murder or rape or commit some other terrible atrocity?

[RickD]

MAGSolo wrote:
. In response to your question, yes, I think God either does not exist or is either not good or not all powerful because he does nothing about human suffering on a large or small scale.

That's interesting MAG. "He does nothing about human suffering on a large or small scale".

Jesus Christ, who is God, came in the flesh as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. Those who place their faith in Christ, in who He is and what He did, will spend eternity with God. This "eternity" is free from sin, tears, pain, and suffering. God desires for all men to spend eternity with Him. But He won't force you to love Him.

So, by Christ's sacrifice, God has done something about human suffering. And He did it on a pretty large scale, too.

[MAGSolo]

MAGSolo wrote:
. In response to your question, yes, I think God either does not exist or is either not good or not all powerful because he does nothing about human suffering on a large or small scale.

That's interesting MAG. "He does nothing about human suffering on a large or small scale".

Jesus Christ, who is God, came in the flesh as a sacrifice for the sin of all humanity. Those who place their faith in Christ, in who He is and what He did, will spend eternity with God. This "eternity" is free from sin, tears, pain, and suffering. God desires for all men to spend eternity with Him. But He won't force you to love Him.

So, by Christ's sacrifice, God has done something about human suffering. And He did it on a pretty large scale, too.

Thats great for eternity I suppose. In the mean time people have to live in the here and now. If someone were to rob you at gunpoint sometime in the near future and threaten to kill you. Would you tell them to go ahead and kill you because you dont care about this life because you will get to spend eternity in heaven? If someone were to kidnap some female relative of yours and lock them in their basement as a sex slave, would you say that her suffering doesnt matter because she will spend eternity in heaven?

[MAGSolo]

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

my criteria for judging good is this; you are judged by your actions and this is mostly pertaining to how you treat other people. So to me a good person is one that treats others well, does not seek to do others harm, seeks to prevent suffering when able, and tries to help others in need when able. That is my criteria for any conscious, self-aware entity.

So if a human that could prevent evil and doesnt does not meet your standards of being good, how can God refrain from preventing evil and yet still meet your standard of being good. Im confused as to why you have different criteria of goodness for God and humans?

.. because if God removed evil from your own heart, Mag, against your own will, you would cry foul - that's not fair...

God is that absolutely just and right to all - even you to permit you to reason on your own. Think about it...

How about it? Would you like malice/evil/ from your heart?
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I have no evil in my heart unless you call my strong desire to annihilate evil itself evil. I dont have evil in my heart and I dont want to bog this discussion down debating that point. Furthermore if I did have evil in my heart and God removed it against my will, I would not cry foul. That doesnt even make sense. Picture yourself sitting around upset that God removed evil from your heart. Does that really make sense to you?

[MAGSolo]

lover I would say that if God were to rebuke me for questioning how he can allow evil to exist and persist then I would be very happy because then at least I would have evidence that he exist and then I would have faith that he said some good reason for allowing evil to persist. Currently though I think evil is very strong evidence that the biblical God of Christianity does not exist. I think if there is a god that it is either completely indifferent or to human suffering or completely powerless to do anything about it.

MagSolo, now is Feb 25 and on Feb 16 I wrote you this in the thread "Why am I here" that you started.

And I would create heaven for people. Mag, we are on earth now, we are sinners, there is evil and there is suffering. And I view suffering on this earth almost nothing comparable to joy in heaven. Furthermore, knowing the evil and its causes make us appreciate the good and long for it. Do you appreciate, Mag, all God has done for us? And do you want to live in a new world where there is no suffering?

Have you read it? And if so, why you have not continued the debate?

Now, you entered this thread and moreless keep posting the same stuff.

What I see is that you basically wants Heaven to be already on this Earth.

Further more, your post is derailing this thread. We do not debate existence of God here. So, stop derailing this thread, and establish a new one or post in a more proper one. For that, please use the forum "Questions for Christians". This forum we are in now is "Christian Theology" and we do not debate here existence of God and personal emotions.

We will not ban you (at least not for now), but I can restrict your rights and forbid you to post in "Christian Theology" forum. It's not that I punish you, it's that I protect other posters from derailing their threads. It's not about banning, it's about protecting.

Think about it.

All: I would appreciate if you do not respond to Mag's emotional posts here.

The only reason Im even here is because you sent me a private message bringing this thread to my attention. When I first responded and then clicked out I had to search my post history because I couldnt find this thread because I didnt even know it was in the theology section. Im here because you brought this thread to my attention and my post was concerning the problem of evil in relation to god. I think the problem of evil is the number one reason that many believers lose their faith so how can you have a discussion about the problem of evil without also discussing its implications on the existence of God?

here is the message you sent me:
Hi.

Some wished to discuss problem of evil. Here is the link to the thread I created.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=38182#p136232

Best,
Hana

[RickD]

MAGSolo,
The problem of evil is a difficult one. Just think about this: evil exists whether one believes in God or not. With no God, there is no solution to the problem of evil. With God, there is still the problem of evil, but there's also a solution.

[neo-x]

Well I think all evil people should die. Why should they live? They serve no purpose, provide no benefit to humanity.

I think you are unfit to make judgements for all humanity.

You are probably insensitive to even suggest this but I guess its rational to some point, though it is retarded on the moral level all the way. I am not sure but my little experience insists that you are trolling here. Putting out a controversial statement and then let all others scratch their heads on it.

Do you realize that you are evil to some degree too? Have you given it a thought? I mean have you ever considered that you may be a part of the whole problem too? I don't think you have a problem with God, i think you have problems with people.

If there is a God than you simply are unaware of all the things, all the variables being in place to calculate an outcome.

Lets me breif something to you

God ordered massacres:
Only to 6 nations THROUGHOUT ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.
Have you considered why that may be so? without your emotional bias ruin the whole thing?

God allowed slavery:
Yes he did in the old testament. And then HE stopped it all the way too. It wasn't the best solution but I think it was the only the most best one in those circumstances. It was certainly better than killing your enemies.

Let me ask you, was it ok to kill osama bin laden?
do you know that american drones kill innocent children every 2 strikes out of three?

Let me quote Martin luther king here "He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
by this standard you could kill half the planet, may be more.

think about it.

[PaulSacramento]

God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it.

Yeah, that is a heck of a statement...

God had no problem with having entire nations wiped out on several occassions down to children and infants because their societies were evil. What is the big deal about him killing someone that is about to murder or rape or commit some other terrible atrocity?

I think you need to read what you wrote there.
If your co-worker dropped dead right next to you right now, or your father or mother or sister or son, what would you think?
If God decided to kill anyone BEFORE they committed an "evil act" ( which according to you is an act this is not good, ie: an act that will harm another), God would have to kill them before of course because after doesn't make sense for an all-knowing being, right?
SO God kills some one you love because He knows that person WILL commit and act of evil.
That person has NOT done it yet but has been tried and executed for something he/she will do.
And you are OK with this?
You are ok with God killing people BEFORE they commit an act of evil even though YOU have EVIDENCE that they WOULD do such?
You are OK wit that?

[1over137]

Mag, you seem to be angry on God for all the suffering.

Mmm, aren't you angry on Adam and Eve too? Or devil?

[1over137]

lover I would say that if God were to rebuke me for questioning how he can allow evil to exist and persist then I would be very happy because then at least I would have evidence that he exist and then I would have faith that he said some good reason for allowing evil to persist. Currently though I think evil is very strong evidence that the biblical God of Christianity does not exist. I think if there is a god that it is either completely indifferent or to human suffering or completely powerless to do anything about it.

So, you would like to be like Job, having that privilege to have some communication with God. Job is an important figure in the Bible. Do you wish to be the main actor too?

And what about millions of other doubting people? Should he directly communicate with them? And why not with all the people on Earth?

What do you think about this?

[B. W.]

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

my criteria for judging good is this; you are judged by your actions and this is mostly pertaining to how you treat other people. So to me a good person is one that treats others well, does not seek to do others harm, seeks to prevent suffering when able, and tries to help others in need when able. That is my criteria for any conscious, self-aware entity.

So if a human that could prevent evil and doesnt does not meet your standards of being good, how can God refrain from preventing evil and yet still meet your standard of being good. Im confused as to why you have different criteria of goodness for God and humans?

.. because if God removed evil from your own heart, Mag, against your own will, you would cry foul - that's not fair...

God is that absolutely just and right to all - even you to permit you to reason on your own. Think about it...

How about it? Would you like malice/evil/ from your heart?
-
-
-

I have no evil in my heart unless you call my strong desire to annihilate evil itself evil. I dont have evil in my heart and I dont want to bog this discussion down debating that point. Furthermore if I did have evil in my heart and God removed it against my will, I would not cry foul. That doesnt even make sense. Picture yourself sitting around upset that God removed evil from your heart. Does that really make sense to you?

So I take it - one - you never lied and two - you never lusted after a member of the opposite sex ; and Three - Never have envied another's possessions? Four, have you ever lashed out in in anger wrongly? Five -never wrongly accused anyone in your life... are these correct?

Next, it appears to me, from following your comments so far is this, the actual definition of the word translated evil in the bible seems to escape you. So for clarity, Mag, please define what the word 'evil' means to you so people will not be speaking of separate concepts.

Thank You
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[MAGSolo]

I define evil as profoundly immoral or malevolent. And I have to say that the idea of lusting after the opposite sex as being evil is completely ridiculous. I find women attractive, but I dont think I lust after them. I dont go around wishing I could have sex with every attractive woman I see throughout the day. Ive certainly lied before but while lying is wrong, I dont think its evil No Ive never envied another persons possessions, wouldnt be evil if I did. My family was pretty well off when I was growing up so there wasnt much that I ever wanted that I didnt get as a kid and as an adult Ive never been a very materialistic person so there has really never been anything that someone had that I envied, but again even if I did, that wouldnt be evil. Ive never wrongly accused anyone ever in my life, ive never lashed out at anyone in anger. I have been angry, but Ive never lashed out at anyone because of it.

To me none of these things you have named fall under the definition of evil. Some of them are wrong, but no logical and reasonable person would call these things evil. And because a book written a few thousand years ago says they are doesnt mean its true.

[MAGSolo]

lover I would say that if God were to rebuke me for questioning how he can allow evil to exist and persist then I would be very happy because then at least I would have evidence that he exist and then I would have faith that he said some good reason for allowing evil to persist. Currently though I think evil is very strong evidence that the biblical God of Christianity does not exist. I think if there is a god that it is either completely indifferent or to human suffering or completely powerless to do anything about it.

So, you would like to be like Job, having that privilege to have some communication with God. Job is an important figure in the Bible. Do you wish to be the main actor too?

And what about millions of other doubting people? Should he directly communicate with them? And why not with all the people on Earth?

What do you think about this?

Ive wondered recently why God doesnt send prophets anymore like the old testament prophets or even John the babtist. I guess you might say they didnt have the church in those days, but for a lot of people today, church does not do any good at all. I dont think churches are very successful at all when it comes to people like me who have very strong doubts and others who are very strong atheists. So I often wonder why God totally abandoned the idea of prophets and disciples because there are a lot of people like me that have fallen away that would very easily come back if we had a Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Ezekial, Isiaih, and so forth. And dont tell me that there are disciples here today because you know perfectly well that Im talking about actual legitimate prophets that Jesus said there would be. Jesus told the disciples to go out and heal and do works in his name, and yet there are no disciples that can do anything of the sort today. So doubters have been abandoned with absolutely nothing to bolster or rekindle their faith. Yes I would absolutely love to talk to God. I would love to be a prophet or disciple for God, but the odds of that happening appear to be absolutely zero. its really not fair that in this day and age when science can explain just about anything, we get nothing to support the idea of God but back in ancient times when people were just naturally superstitious just because they didnt know how anything worked, thats when they got prophets and disciples that could perform works and miracles. A lot of people would be turned into believers today if we had something similar, but apparently God is happy to just have us all burn in hell for not believing in something with no evidence to support it.

[RickD]

MAGSolo wrote:
Ive wondered recently why God doesnt send prophets anymore like the old testament prophets or even John the babtist. I guess you might say they didnt have the church in those days, but for a lot of people today, church does not do any good at all. I dont think churches are very successful at all when it comes to people like me who have very strong doubts and others who are very strong atheists.

Mag, I tend to think God doesn't use prophets anymore because we have the bible now. Mag, God promises you that if you really want to know Him, He will speak to you through scripture. God desires all men to come into a relationship with Him, and He primarily uses scripture to speak to us. If you really are sincere in seeking God, He knows your intentions. Read the bible and ask God to make you open to receiving what He has written for you there.

there are a lot of people like me that have fallen away that would very easily come back if we had a Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Ezekial, Isiaih, and so forth.

You don't need new prophets when God has given you all you need in Christ. All of the Old Testament prophets ultimately pointed to Jesus Christ. Now that He has come to die and be resurrected for you, the prophets have done their job.

Yes I would absolutely love to talk to God.

Mag, if you are being honest here, God knows that. He is there for you. He has always been there, patiently waiting for you to come home to Him.

. A lot of people would be turned into believers today if we had something similar, but apparently God is happy to just have us all burn in hell for not believing in something with no evidence to support it.

Mag, never for a moment is God happy that people choose eternal separation from Him, over eternal life with Him. But like I said before, He won't make you choose Him.

MAGSolo, the choice is before you today. Do you choose to go back to the loving arms of your Father in heaven who is waiting for you?

Get on your knees and earnestly seek Him. He's waiting for you to come home.