Evidence for God from Science

Rubberneck wrote:

It's an acknowledgement that they don't want to personally offer their opinions since:

But this is you presuming that they hold a specific opinion, when actually an opinion may not exist, only the acknowledgement that there are possibilities out there that currently try to explain, but they haven’t committed to believe any of them yet.

a) they embrace other things with quite certainty rather than reverting to a nihilistic position on knowledge, and

So what? Do you commit an opinion on absolutely everything and never hold off until further information is available? You never scrutinise concepts that are aimed to convince you but fail, even when you don’t hold on alternative?

b) they criticise other people's arguments for their beliefs. For example, God creating based upon fine-tuning arguments, kalam cosmological (particularly WLC's), evidence in physical creation that leads us to conclude a beginning) -- in doing so presume to know better and yet don't really offer up any substantial alternative.

And you don’t do this in any other walk of life? Theists offer the arguments – if you don’t want them criticised then don’t offer them and sit in your protective bubble. Atheists, like anyone else where theism/religion is irrelevant, will criticise arguments put forward for a variety of things without offering an alternative, yet you seem to think theistic claims should be offered some special dispensation where alternatives must be offered before you’ll even entertain their criticism? How precious.

When pressed for something, they recede into a position of agnosticism -- that we can't be certain about anything... Well, if anyone of any position is going to be so deadset critical and opinionative against others beliefs -- then at least offer your own opinion of the matter. People have opinions without knuckling down certainty -- as you yourself acknowledge.

So actually, your quibble isn’t against atheism, it’s against agnosticism, or more specifically agnostic atheism. Why should people, or even how are people supposed to offer an opinion when they don’t currently hold one? Would you prefer these people to lie and make something up for which they don’t believe? You can knock yourself out in an exercise where you critique an opinion someone doesn’t actually hold if you wish, but you may find that even more boring and less worthwhile than discussing with someone who honestly holds no opinion, yet is willing to discuss your opinion.

Some more honest Atheists will put forward a multiverse scenario, but then quickly avoid any metaphysical critiques to quickly revert to a "I don't know". Yet, surely the logical consistency of possible positions can be evaluated, even if they may not in fact be actual. So the person who does this is just being a bad sport.

And I, presumably like you, would criticise the multiverse theory for probably the same reasons you do. Of course, to some of those who believe in a multiverse, they’ll brush someone like me aside as boring because I give them no alternative.
To me, a multiverse scenario is on a level playing field with a God scenario – but I could lie and say that I like the sound of the multiverse scenario because it’s rather “atheistic”, so my opinion is that I find the multiverse scenario more probable, and then we can spar, criticising and scrutinising the contrasting opinions we hold. Now that really would be productive….

Re: first sentence, thanks for validating the type of response to expect from an Atheist in my original post.

I’m sure you’ll receive rapturous applause and pats on the back aplenty from the theist rafters. If I present myself so that I remain unconvinced by any proposition, be it God, multiverse or whatever, and that fits in with your boredom, so be it. I prefer to approach you honestly than make something up.

How convenient in your first sentence here that you avoid offering anything.

There’s nothing “convenient” about it, it’s just honest. I keep repeating this sentiment, but would you really prefer me to lie and present an alternative opinion that I don’t actually hold?

Yet, in the next sentence you leap out of such uncertainty to declare with certainty something that is very arguably wrong.

I’m not declaring certainty. My response is based on the provisional knowledge I hold. I’m open to the possibility that it can be explained in such a manner that it doesn’t pander to naturalism, but I currently see no way in which that can be achieved.

Please provide how time existing before time is contradictory?

Please provide where I have stated that time existing before time is contradictory, or remove the straw-man.

Such may be illusory, but certainly I see nothing contradictory about there being a state of timelessness and then time.

There is no point in a state void of a continuum where time would begin. A temporal state born from an atemporal state is as eternal as the atemporal state, either that or time doesn’t exist.

Of course, if you look at the issue retrospectively -- at a point in time looking backward -- we indeed may say a time now existed before time. But, this perspective is based upon time's existence. Without having time the statement doesn't hold. Since none of us really questions that we live within time, the statement holds but only in virtue of time's existence.

You’re making more of the point for me. Statements don’t hold without the virtue of time’s existence, yet you are making statements regarding an atermporal state, ergo the statement doesn’t hold.

To restate matter. In actuality, the reality of the matter is there would have just been a changeless state "without time" (atemporality) and then a change to a state with time (temporality). A cause cannot retro-cause itself, so this is ultimately an illusion of time, since without the existence of time there really was no before/after.

So you understand that either there was no change from atemporal to temporal or that there was no change because time doesn’t exist. Sorted.

Perhaps if you actually thought about was before the singularity, and entertained different ideas (as very few more interesting Atheists do)... then you'd be able to offer more sophisticated responses rather than retreating into Agnoticism (it really isn't retreating into Nihilism since you accept many things as true with some certainty -- Nihilism strictly speaking in an ontological sense will say nothing can be known).

First off, I’m not trying to appease or live up to your standard of “sophisticated”. Secondly, I have thought about it, realised that such a concept doesn’t hold grammatically because of the limitation of our language, so that any talk of “before” is meaningless. Thirdly, I have entertained different ideas, whether it’s God, an eternal universe and so on. I’m also aware that the model used for things like the KCA is merely just one model, a model of an inflationary universe, where certain theorems, theories and hypotheses circulate. To “retreat” into agnosticism is to admit that my knowledge on such issues is found wanting, and I won’t be taking a punt either way until further evidence is provided…. or I could just lie and make up a belief to get you to engage.

You're talking against my many years of experience debating and entering into discussions with self-identifying strong/weak Atheists.

Any statement I made previous didn’t take into account your many years of experience debating and entering into discussions with self-identifying atheists, for the obvious reason that I’m oblivious to it. I don’t know how you expected me to factor that in.

"Atheists" can and are often inconsistent with their "Atheism" (as I have argued elsewhere).

The only way one can become inconsistent with their atheism is to flit between being atheist and theist.

Further, I do not describe "how atheists feel about their position" but rather "how I feel about their common rhetoric".

Ok, fair point.

While I willingly admit that its wrong to categorise ALL Atheists in one broad stroke, by the same token it is my experience that Atheists generally seem to have a lot of beliefs, perspectives and behaviours in common.

And peel away at every individual atheist and you’ll probably find that they have a lot of beliefs, perspectives and behaviours in common with you. So what? Perhaps it would be better if you approached every individual on their own merits, instead of categorising and dividing people up into neat little boxes.

The one commonality I highlight in many Atheists I've experienced, is that they love to criticise the positions of others on reality while offering none of their own. Yet, in order for criticisms to really be valid, the "Atheist" needs to assume some higher and more logical position on reality. So the Atheist who criticises other views that attempt to explain reality, is ultimately claiming to know something about reality which he continues to hide his cards on by offering up nothing.

The only card you’re playing here is your persecution one.
I cannot comment on what you have experienced. All I can say is that you seem to want to paint most atheists in a certain light, as if that somehow makes their stance invalid. All you’re really doing is having a moan.

At least those of other positions, like Theists, Deists, Buddhists put something on the table in intellectual fairness from which they can criticise.

Aww, diddums. Are the atheists not playing fair? Grow up. This has nothing to do with playing fair. No-one is obliged to offer alternatives before they can criticise a concept or opinion in any walk of life. Oh, and there a plenty of atheist Buddhists.

As for any generalisations I may have made, re-read my original post. After I describe what seems to be almost prophetic now of the way an Atheist would respond to each of my four questions... I nonetheless write:
Kurieuo: Ok, so I improvised on the responses and likely setup some strawmen. But, my experience in discussions with Atheists is that the typical response is to ignore questions about reality and just accept everything at face value. They don't like to dig and probe into questions, or consider how something might be possible. They hate metaphysical questions -- asking why questions about reality and thinking about possible answers.
So I'm not sure what it is you are trying to exactly argue re: generalisations and straw men that I already didn't admit to? Nonetheless, generalisations often arise due to observing many shared commonalities within the group being generalised. In this instance, I've generalised Atheists. But heck, I've left it open to any Atheist who disagrees to show themselves different!

I’ve never said that I’d be highlighting generalisations and straw-men that hadn’t already been admitted to. I merely stated that I had observed some, and you’re happy to admit that you’ve made some. That would make me correct in my observations.
Again, I cannot comment on what you have experienced. All I can say is that it doesn’t match mine. Just out of curiosity, do you hold theists who match these criteria as intellectually unfair and boring, or is it just atheists?

Now, I feel in your case that you've had much time to provide something substantial. To provide your opinion and prove me wrong, or at least place yourself in the 1% of Atheist who in my experience are intellectually honest.

I’m not being dishonest, and I ask that you please retract the slur that I am not being honest. It’s not for me to provide something for which I don’t have in order to prove you wrong. I’m not stating that you are wrong, for one. And I’m not interested in sycophantically pandering to “K’s 1% of Atheist” club, as if it’s wrong not to be if you’re an atheist. Can I join you on that pedestal or will you come down to humility level?

Yet, you start off wanting me to place something on the table re: reality -- a definition of reality. Which you rightly (in my opinion) receive criticism for, as your silence in offering up anything appears to just be proving points made in my original post. But, I spend my time responding to provide you with an opportunity to prove yourself different to those Atheists generally identified in my original post. So, I jump through your hoop and offer up a definition of reality. What do you do next? Oh, it really is predictable as I'm sure everyone who previously criticised you would have been expecting. You dive into criticising my definition of reality without even offering your own definition!

Stop their while I fetch my violin from my matchbox.
I made it specifically clear that I wanted to make sure we understood each other with the term, and in the end we came to an understanding about the nihilistic approach. You’re too quick play your persecution card. We came to an understanding. That was meant to be a good thing wasn’t it?

Come on. This isn't even something to do with what existed before or caused our universe. It really goes to justify what I say about your typical Atheist in my OP. But, we're not done yet. I still decide to give you a chance to explain your definition of reality by offering up another invitation. Finally, after criticising my definition a little bit more, you provide a position of reality that seems quite Nihilistic when it comes to knowing anything.

Oh the “typical atheist” routine. Yawn. You’re good at relaying the structure of how a discussion has gone, I’ll give you that. Carry on….

But then, after continuing with you further, you reject Nihilism to embrace certain a priori assumptions as being true. And then you criticise me further for generalisations and straw men, though you have lacked presenting your opinion on anything substantial to a discussion on "reality" opting instead to hide behind some "nihilistic uncertainty".

Start a discussion on something else then, other than reality, which you acknowledge requires you to make a priori assumptions about it existing (not that it is true that it exists). We can work with whether the God you believe exists, exists within the reality you believe I also occupy if you wish.

While you remain dismissive of my experiences with Atheists revealing I suppose what is more accurately a lack of intellectual honesty... Lunelle and you have just supported the full thrust of what I was getting at in the original post of this thread.

I’m not dismissive of your experiences – I’m oblivious to them! While I can’t comment on them, I can say that you are making presumptuous accusations of intellectual dishonesty that you have failed to demonstrate. If you can’t handle people criticising, scrutinising and questioning your theistic claims without offering alternatives then that’s your problem, yet your way of dealing with it is to accuse them (and me) of dishonesty. It’s pathetic.

I've wasted enough time responding. I wish I could take my time back. But in any case, thought I'd open myself up to try a find another Atheist that may fall in that 1%.

Perhaps you should’ve thought about that before you started responding.
Alas, I don’t fall into the K’s notorious 1% club. I’m devastated. Really I am. I really wish I could live up to your standards….

I'll hand over now to let you respond however you like, and any one else here can feel free to jump in, but I'm done wasting my time further with you here.

A shame, and I say that minus the sarcasm, that you should adopt the Dunning-Kruger effect. "Typical" Christian….

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:
I was a YEC once and I can assure you it doesn't hold up, not according to science it does not.

RickD wrote:Neha, please clear up the contradiction between your two posts below.

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:
I was a YEC once and I can assure you it doesn't hold up, not according to science it does not.

If you have never seen anything that hints at God, how were you once a YEC?

Neha wrote:

RickD wrote:Neha, please clear up the contradiction between your two posts below.

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:
I was a YEC once and I can assure you it doesn't hold up, not according to science it does not.

If you have never seen anything that hints at God, how were you once a YEC?

Raised Yec! But the problems within it were too many, even as a child, God drowning all the world in Noah's flood did not make sense to me.

Kurieuo wrote:

Rubberneck wrote:

It's an acknowledgement that they don't want to personally offer their opinions since:

Rubberneck, thanks for your willingness to offer up your beliefs and disprove my original post.

Sorry that you are offended by some of the things I've pointed out. You've had every opportunity to provide substance to your beliefs, or lack thereof, but have done yourself no favours. Your last post says a lot, and I hope it serves as an eye-opener to many reading. Though you perhaps provide more substance in it than all your other posts in this thread.

If you don't mind me pointing out further (of course you don't!) , the emotion that comes through in your words seems to reveal that your issue with belief in God is an emotional one, not an intellectual one. Perhaps that is why many Atheists act in the manner I observe eh? Particularly those who love debating on forums like this one, their motivation is raw emotion. After all, if God doesn't exist what meaning is there to debating, let alone anything in life?

God bless! No hard feelings. Really, all the best.

Rubberneck wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Rubberneck wrote:

It's an acknowledgement that they don't want to personally offer their opinions since:

Rubberneck, thanks for your willingness to offer up your beliefs and disprove my original post.

Sorry that you are offended by some of the things I've pointed out. You've had every opportunity to provide substance to your beliefs, or lack thereof, but have done yourself no favours. Your last post says a lot, and I hope it serves as an eye-opener to many reading. Though you perhaps provide more substance in it than all your other posts in this thread.

If you don't mind me pointing out further (of course you don't!) , the emotion that comes through in your words seems to reveal that your issue with belief in God is an emotional one, not an intellectual one. Perhaps that is why many Atheists act in the manner I observe eh? Particularly those who love debating on forums like this one, their motivation is raw emotion. After all, if God doesn't exist what meaning is there to debating, let alone anything in life?

God bless! No hard feelings. Really, all the best.

I'm not offended by anything you've pointed out.

I'm not intent on doing myself any favours or not doing myself any favours, whether that's from my own perspective, yours or anyone elses.

I don't know what you expect this to open people's eyes about.

Any emotion I portrayed (a virtually impossible task to not portray any emotion, unless you think you're some kind of Vulcan) was aimed at your rather silly moan about atheists not offering alternatives, and not about belief in God. As stated in my intro, I'm apathetic towards the notion.

My motivation to post here specifically, was to engage with theists/Christians/atheists on issues and perhaps close divides and increase understanding, but if it helps with your confirmation to think that I have some emotional angst as a reason for discussing theistic issues, because really I'm in some sort of denial where I don't want God to exist, then so be it.

I'll let fly the gaping assumption regarding meanings.

Peace.

• If our universe had a beginning, and God is not responsible for creating our universe what else?
• How is it we can depend upon our experiences, if our senses aren't necessarily "designed" for truth but rather "survival"
• How is it that chemicals and physical processes can rise above itself to produce a sentient and free being that we intuit ourselves to be?
• Where is there room for a "self" in a view where who we are is determined by physical processes? Why do "I" sense... why do "I" feel... why do "I" think... matter and energy don't have sentience do they?
• What is it about the physical laws which appear contingent in that they could be other than what they are -- the universe and laws within could be an unpredictable chaotic mess and yet they run in such a predictable and stable manner?
• How can you be sure that "death" is really the cessation of "life" rather than some different journey if you have not experienced death and don't know, can't be certain about what underpins our reality?

Neha wrote: Raised Yec! But the problems within it were too many, even as a child,

Kurieuo wrote:...Lots of stuff...

Neha wrote:...I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Neha wrote:Q: What caused the "big bang" that brought our universe (time, space, energy, matter) into existence?
A: I don't know for sure, do you?

Neha wrote:Q: How do you know what you experience is true?
A: By knowing what is untrue. By being logical.

Neha wrote:Q: How do the physical laws hold together?
A: No, I am a simple girl, please tell me of the laws which hold these laws of physics together. And I hope you won't turn to divine mystery as the answer.

Neha wrote:Q: How is it possible for someone to come back from the dead?
A: You tell me.

Neha wrote:
I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:...Lots of stuff...

Basically an Atheist is still quite happy to say "I don't know" to a lot of your questions.

Much cheers to all.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:...Lots of stuff...

Basically an Atheist is still quite happy to say "I don't know" to a lot of your questions.

Much cheers to all.

That's the whole point, why dismiss someone else's belief if ultimately you don't really know and cannot provide an alternate answer. If you have no alternative answer then really you cannot dismiss a belief as being not true, you could only say I don't know yet because it is still remains entirely possible that their belief could be true.

Dan

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:...Lots of stuff...

Basically an Atheist is still quite happy to say "I don't know" to a lot of your questions.

Much cheers to all.

That's the whole point, why dismiss someone else's belief if ultimately you don't really know and cannot provide an alternate answer. If you have no alternative answer then really you cannot dismiss a belief as being not true, you could only say I don't know yet because it is still remains entirely possible that their belief could be true.

Dan

You've hit the nail exactly on the head! Kind of like the saying: "Either put up, or shut up."

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:...Lots of stuff...

Basically an Atheist is still quite happy to say "I don't know" to a lot of your questions.

Much cheers to all.

That's the whole point, why dismiss someone else's belief if ultimately you don't really know and cannot provide an alternate answer. If you have no alternative answer then really you cannot dismiss a belief as being not true, you could only say I don't know yet because it is still remains entirely possible that their belief could be true.

Dan

You've hit the nail exactly on the head! Kind of like the saying: "Either put up, or shut up."

Basically modern atheism is really just agnosticism in disguise, I still prefer the classical definition of being a positive belief that there is no God(s) (I think Jac summed this up very well in another thread).

Modern atheism is so intellectually dishonest and to be frank quite boring, there is nothing appetizing about it at all.

I actually draw a comparison between evolution proponents (the theist position) and creation proponents (the atheist position), evolutionists can provide loads of supporting evidence for evolution in the same way the theist can for God, but the creationist has very little evidence to support their position and all they can seem to do is attack the evolution position without providing proof of an alternative (no offence to my creationism brothers and sisters). Just for the record, I support all possible positions (TE, OEC, YEC etc...) and will not hold dogmatically to any perspective and my view may change with any new potential data being input.

I don't mean any offence to any atheists out there, this is not a personal attack, just my thoughts on the general idea of modern atheism.

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

I've stated to my wife that if I were ever to fall away from God, that it wouldn't be through embracing Atheism. Such is too simple a view. Antony Flew ultimately thought the same when he switched from Atheism to some Deism/Theism to the dismay of many. Too many beliefs I strongly have would start unraveling and no longer make sense, as CS Lewis points out here about belief in justice. Rather, it would be through rejecting God on an emotional level. Rejecting God for creating life and putting up with evil (even though I myself am imperfect). It would be through me moving away from God, not through a denial of God's existence.