There is no Trinity

[secretfire6]

There is only one passage in the Authorized Version of the Bible used by Trinitarians to support their view.

I John 5:7-8, For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in Earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. AV

Ummmm ... yeah. I see you haven't actually talked to many Trinitarians. I've been in discussions with Jehovah's witnesses concerning the Trinity, the Deity of the Word, and the Deity of the Holy Spirit on and off since 1971. I don't and have not (since learning in 1971 the Greek text issue concerning this verse) used 1 John 5:7 in those discussions. Haven't needed it, and I would be reluctant to found a significant teaching on but one verse, anyway (haven't needed to, either, as the links in my previous post demonstrate).

I used to be one and those aren't my words, it's a quote or should have been in quotes if i messed that up. Looking back on how I used to support or explain the trinity...I am ashamed to be honest. I never used anything out of the Hebrew OT except for the various titles given to God, how they are plural and how sometimes Jesus was called by one of those titles. With what I have learned in the past 4 years or so, everything I said to people falls on it's face. Since then I haven't heard anything new to support or explain the trinity other than a fork underneath a napkin. Is there something in the Hebrew OT that I've been missing? Something that shows a personal interaction between holy spirit and the father or shows them being in separate places at once or doing different things at the same time? for example we can tell in the NT that Jesus is separate from the father and Jesus is separate from Holy spirit because they interact between each other and all that. Can we find that for the father and holy spirit?

[PeteSinCA]

I am absolutely serious PeteSinCA. I have already posted a link here in this thread to the very things you asked for as well as in another thread called "why is this in the Bible?" started by other folks. In fact I might have posted 2 different links in one of these threads. The 2 most important names/writings you need to check are Clement of Alexandria, who was a church historian and a disciple of Kefa. The other name is Origen. Pretty much anyone from them until 263 A.D. will show the divergence from what the apostles spread from Jesus, to what became the Roman church.

In view of the paragraph below, it looks possible that I misunderstood your post. Either way, Clement of Alexandria and Origen were very prolific writers. Each takes up more than half of a very thick volume in the Ante-Nicene Fathers set. That's why I asked for work name, book and chapter reference. I'll try to go back and find the links you posted.

The next thing I say is going to confuse some. The father is God, yes. The holy spirit is God, yes. The son is God,yes. So how does that make the trinity wrong? Can anyone answer? (hint: it's not modal-ism)

I was saying that the Trinity teaching, as it is commonly presented (e.g. in the Lutheran Church in which I was raised), is true: three distinct persons (i.e. not modalism); each described as God (i.e. not Arianism or any other form of unitarianism); one God (i.e. not tritheism).

[B. W.]

...Is there something in the Hebrew OT that I've been missing? Something that shows a personal interaction between holy spirit and the father or shows them being in separate places at once or doing different things at the same time? for example we can tell in the NT that Jesus is separate from the father and Jesus is separate from Holy spirit because they interact between each other and all that. Can we find that for the father and holy spirit?

Yes, it is all over the OT, I posted a few a few frames back.

For ease, look these verses over: Isa 41:4, Isa 48:12 - write down who was speaking.

Now read Rev 1:17, 18 and see Rev 22:12,13,14,15,16 and note who is talking...

Next read Isa 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." NASB

Note the titles used LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts and then the I AM statement...

Who is the real King of Israel and who is Israel's redeemer?

Which Hebrew word was used and translated in the text - God?

That is your first lesson...
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[B. W.]

Next Lesson:

Numbers 6:24,25,26,27 NASB reads:

"24 The LORD bless you, and keep you;
25 The LORD make His face shine on you, And be gracious to you;
26 The LORD lift up His countenance on you, And give you peace.'
27 So they shall invoke My name on the sons of Israel, and I then will bless them."

How many times is LORD used in these verses?

Note that when LORD is spelled in all caps it is spelled as YHWH in the Hebrew text.

Look up the words face and countenance - what is the Hebrew word used, and its meaning, and what is the word's grammar type and tense?

Next, who demonstrated grace to humanity - please see John 1:14 and John 1:16 for a few clues

What does Acts 9:31, Rom 14:17, Rom 15:13, Gal 5:22, and Eph 4:3 share what in common with Numbers 6:26?

Who are the presences - of YHWH mentioned in verse 25 and 26?

YHWH mentioned three times - one YHWH revealing his One YHWH Nature - as three distinct YHWH presences...

Hmmm, How is one blest?
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[B. W.]

Next Lesson:

Zec 7:8,9,10,11, "Then the word of the LORD came to Zechariah, saying..." NASB

Notice YHWH - the word of YHWH spoke to Zechariah.

Now notice in these verses how 'LORD of Host' and 'His Spirit' are set apart as distinct from each other and the speaker as well - word of YHWH as verse 9 indicates? Note the use of He, His, and I are used in verses 12 and 13 too...

Zec 7:12 NASB - Yes, they made their hearts like flint, refusing to hear the law and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by His Spirit through the former prophets. Thus great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.

Zec 7:13 NASB -Therefore it happened, that just as He proclaimed and they would not hear, so they called out and I would not listen," says the LORD of hosts."

The Lord is speaking, yet, he sets apart two distinct presences in the text that share one divine essence ...

Next Lesson:

Now look at Amos 4:11 NASB, "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD.."

What do you see interesting in what YHWH said here?

Why would YHWH say God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah? and in the following verses why is YHWH speaking of meeting your God and notice LORD (YHWH) God (Elohim) of host in verse 13. You have one speaking of another as a person, yet same as himself in the usges of Him and He...

Amos 4:12, 13, "Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel; Because I will do this to you, Prepare to meet your God, O Israel." 13 For behold, He who forms mountains and creates the wind And declares to man what are His thoughts, He who makes dawn into darkness And treads on the high places of the earth, The LORD God of hosts is His name." NASB

...see it yet?

Let me break this down for you:

Amos 4:11 NASB, "I (the Father) overthrew you, as God (The Son and Holy Spirit) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD (The Father).

Amos 4:12, "Therefore thus I (the Father) will do to you, O Israel; Because I will do this to you, Prepare to meet your God (The Son), O Israel."

Amos 4:13, "For behold, He (the Son) who forms mountains and creates the wind (note: John 1:3,10, Col 1:16,17; Heb 1:2,3) And declares to man what are His thoughts, He (the Son) who makes dawn into darkness And treads on the high places of the earth, The LORD God ( YHWH Elohim -the Son) of hosts is His name." NASB

Please note that the two angels were Maleks - Messengers sent to Sodom. These were not angelic beings but rather the pre incarnate Son and the Holy Spirit in an theophany.

Please note Jer 50:40 NASB as well too: "As when God overthrew Sodom And Gomorrah with its neighbors," declares the LORD, "No man will live there, Nor will any son of man reside in it."

Now notice the text in Genesis 19:24 how YHWH or LORD is used denoting two locations for YHWH – read and what do you see?

"Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven," Genesis 19:24 NASB

Who was in Sodom and called fire down? See Gen 19:13 for the answer...

"Then the LORD (Son and Holy Spirit) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Father) out of heaven, Genesis 19:24 NASB

Gen 19:13 NASB, "for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD (The Father) that the LORD (Father) has sent us to destroy it."

Need further evidence -then go to Gen 18:

Gen 18:20 And the LORD (The Father) said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
Gen 18:21 "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
Gen 18:22 Then the men (Son and Holy Spirit) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

Verses cited are from the NASB with Father, Son, Holy Spirited in ( ) to help reader see what is going on...

Noticed the two maleks left - so how could YHWH say that he himself will go down into the cities to see for himself yet remained with Abraham unless he sent his two Panim - presences to do so and thus keep his word just spoken? Note that angelic beings are not the - I - YHWH uses... If these were two angelic beings - then he would have said, I send them, and not used I will go down... see the difference?
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[jerzy]

PaulSacramento

You said: “you are either a kid”

I am almost 66.

You said: “proof texting can be used to proof virtually anything and that is why it is of limited value”

You don’t seem to know the difference between proof texting and my asking for proof texts.
1. Proof texting is creating theology and molesting texts to provide evidence.
2. My asking for proof text is in accordance with God’s command to say as He delivered without removing or adding an iota.

You said: “I seem inclined at this moment to think you are simply an atheist troll looking to get banned.”

I am a follower of Christ quoting from Gods word as commanded. It pains me tremendously to hear a Christian forum Board Moderator to consider this as an atheist troll looking to get banned.

What can I say?

Not long ago I would be burned on a stack for such heresy.

[neo-x]

PaulSacramento

You said: “you are either a kid”

I am almost 66.

You said: “proof texting can be used to proof virtually anything and that is why it is of limited value”

You don’t seem to know the difference between proof texting and my asking for proof texts.
1. Proof texting is creating theology and molesting texts to provide evidence.
2. My asking for proof text is in accordance with God’s command to say as He delivered without removing or adding an iota.

You said: “I seem inclined at this moment to think you are simply an atheist troll looking to get banned.”

I am a follower of Christ quoting from Gods word as commanded. It pains me tremendously to hear a Christian forum Board Moderator to consider this as an atheist troll looking to get banned.

What can I say?

Not long ago I would be burned on a stack for such heresy.

Looks like you want more to be martyr than anything and you are just making yourself the victim here when all level headed people are enagaged with you, decently. What a shame!

[PaulSacramento]

PaulSacramento

You said: “you are either a kid”

I am almost 66.

You said: “proof texting can be used to proof virtually anything and that is why it is of limited value”

You don’t seem to know the difference between proof texting and my asking for proof texts.
1. Proof texting is creating theology and molesting texts to provide evidence.
2. My asking for proof text is in accordance with God’s command to say as He delivered without removing or adding an iota.

You said: “I seem inclined at this moment to think you are simply an atheist troll looking to get banned.”

I am a follower of Christ quoting from Gods word as commanded. It pains me tremendously to hear a Christian forum Board Moderator to consider this as an atheist troll looking to get banned.

What can I say?

Not long ago I would be burned on a stack for such heresy.

Now, IF you are 66, then this just silly since you obviously should know better.
I have seen this posting method done by atheists and JW's ( to name only two), they THINK they have superior knowledge of scripture BUT what they have done is CREATE a view of a doctrine that is simply incorrect, state that THIS view is what the doctrine says, then go about disproving THEIR view and NOT the actual doctrine.
Which is what you are doing and since you are older then I can only surmise you are doing this on purpose and not out of ignorance.

[jerzy]

B. W.

You said: “Yes your post are long and rambling and are not coherent”

What can I sa? I only quote from God’s word and keep asking for you to likewise as commanded by God. If you find it not coherent than it is God not I to blame. I just trust every of His words unless has been “interpreted” in our Bibles.

You quoted: “The Hebrew word elohim (god/gods)”

While El is singular Elim is plural. Elohyim is rather reference to the external relation of El/Elim like “god of gods”. Thus angels or judges were governed by God often called by names with El in it like Gabriel. Please consider Ex 23:20-21 to understand names and roles of angels.

We remember that God changed names or powers/authority of people He place upon positions. Unfortunately we lost meaning of Biblical names in our translations whereby a name serves as a distinguishing label today.

You quoted: “Also, there was a group of angelic beings that rebelled against God and were called also called sons of God in Genesis 6:1-3.”

There is no Biblical justification for this theology.

You quoted: “Thus says the LORD (Yahweh),”

This word doesn’t appear in any of the ancient scripts. It was derived from YHVH whereby the dual meaning is far greater than the simple name-tag as we know it today.

You quoted: “There may have been angels around at some point during creation but these are not the 'us' in Genesis. If so, then God did not create everything alone as the bible teaches.”

Please consider this one: Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Then remember, we are told, that God led the Israelites from Egypt. It simply states that, according to psalms, God does His acts by His Spirit/s or angels.

You quoted: “The us and ourrefers to the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) and the Son.”
There is no Biblical support for this assumption.

Besides, the Holy (dedicated) Spirit of the NT (only few mentions in the OT is the Spirit of God (not God the Spirit) of the OT.

You quoted: “Therefore, may the John 1:1-3 debate end! The Word (logos) was indeed God! One God in three persons - blessed Trinity! Truly none like the Lord!”

What a pity that nobody knew this. Texts like Ac 10:36 or Re 20:4 preclude it.
Besides, John must have referred to prophets. He couldn’t wait for your theology. He must have referred to Isa 55:11, Ps 33:6+9, 2Sam 7:12 to mention but few.

Since the rest of your quotes are standard man-made stories which contradict hundreds of proof texts I don’t see need for responding to the rest unless asked about a specific part.

By the way, did you come up with this or it is a copy/paste man you follow?

[PaulSacramento]

B. W.

You said: “Yes your post are long and rambling and are not coherent”

What can I sa? I only quote from God’s word and keep asking for you to likewise as commanded by God. If you find it not coherent than it is God not I to blame. I just trust every of His words unless has been “interpreted” in our Bibles.

You quoted: “The Hebrew word elohim (god/gods)”

While El is singular Elim is plural. Elohyim is rather reference to the external relation of El/Elim like “god of gods”. Thus angels or judges were governed by God often called by names with El in it like Gabriel. Please consider Ex 23:20-21 to understand names and roles of angels.

We remember that God changed names or powers/authority of people He place upon positions. Unfortunately we lost meaning of Biblical names in our translations whereby a name serves as a distinguishing label today.

You quoted: “Also, there was a group of angelic beings that rebelled against God and were called also called sons of God in Genesis 6:1-3.”

There is no Biblical justification for this theology.

You quoted: “Thus says the LORD (Yahweh),”

This word doesn’t appear in any of the ancient scripts. It was derived from YHVH whereby the dual meaning is far greater than the simple name-tag as we know it today.

You quoted: “There may have been angels around at some point during creation but these are not the 'us' in Genesis. If so, then God did not create everything alone as the bible teaches.”

Please consider this one: Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Then remember, we are told, that God led the Israelites from Egypt. It simply states that, according to psalms, God does His acts by His Spirit/s or angels.

You quoted: “The us and ourrefers to the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2) and the Son.”
There is no Biblical support for this assumption.

Besides, the Holy (dedicated) Spirit of the NT (only few mentions in the OT is the Spirit of God (not God the Spirit) of the OT.

You quoted: “Therefore, may the John 1:1-3 debate end! The Word (logos) was indeed God! One God in three persons - blessed Trinity! Truly none like the Lord!”

What a pity that nobody knew this. Texts like Ac 10:36 or Re 20:4 preclude it.
Besides, John must have referred to prophets. He couldn’t wait for your theology. He must have referred to Isa 55:11, Ps 33:6+9, 2Sam 7:12 to mention but few.

Since the rest of your quotes are standard man-made stories which contradict hundreds of proof texts I don’t see need for responding to the rest unless asked about a specific part.

By the way, did you come up with this or it is a copy/paste man you follow?

There is so much wrong and so much misunderstanding in this post, I don't know where to start...

Can I ask you something jerzy?
What Christian denomination are you?

[B. W.]

secretfire6,

I hope the exercises I gave above help answer your question.

Next, think of God's oneness a bit differently than a linear static oneness - say like one chair or one car. That would be in violation of Exodus 20:4... JW's, Christadelphians, Mormonism, Rabbinic Judaism, and oneness folks are in violation - how - by making God a linear one... as it reflects what is on earth, etc and etc...

Let me try to explain how there can be 'None Like God' as YHWH describes himself and since there is 'None like God' then a linear oneness we can conceive of is not the true oneness of God. Why - because we can conceive a linear type of oneness such as one chair, one tree, or one car; therefore, this would make God like any other one item. God must be quite different than a mere linear oneness in order for there to be truly and absolutely None Like Him ...Get it?

So to understand God's oneness let us look at a few things about his nature:

God is Spirit - John 4:24
God is the Living God –Psalms 42:2, Jeremiah 10:10, Mat 22:32
God is self existent - Exodus 3:13,14
God is self sufficient - Psalms 50:10-12

What does a Spirit Being as God really look like? We do not know nor can we actually conceive this for God to be truly none like him. Therefore, because God cannot lie and tells the truth, he tells the truth about himself by displaying theophanies of himself to humanity throughout human history. These are displayed in the exercises I provided and demonstrates that He is a Trinity of Oneness as that is how He reveals himself so we can know Him in truth so God is not a mere linear oneness but a triune oneness.

Next, note that God is self existing and self sufficient. Why is this truth about God important? It is because it helps us understand the tri-unity (Trinity) of God’s Oneness – How?

Let me try to put it this way so you can only begin to grasp this:

God is Spirit – His Spirit essence consists of three Presences. God is self existent, self sufficient, the living God and therefore since living, all three of his presences are capable of independent living self existence and living self sufficiency. These three make up the Spirit essence of God’s oneness. None truly like him, is there?

There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – the three self existing, self sufficient, and living presences of God’s total Spiritual Presence (the Godhead) that make up God’s oneness. The Old Testament reveals this throughout the OT. Why – God cannot lie and reveals the truth about himself so that we can know him. The Father being the source and the Son and Holy Spirit the extensions of God's Oneness - there is more here, but think of the Father as the Uniting presence and you might gain some insight. Look over the creeds again as they explain this too. The creeds came into beings to combat heresy about God's unique oneness. I only provided here a brief example that leaves out parts that the Creeds mention.

When Jesus prayed to the Father while on earth, he was not a ventriloquist as that would present a lie and deception. God united himself to humanity as Philippians 2:5-30 mentions because of what is mentioned in John 3:16-21…

God in three presences (personhoods or persons) of One Divine Essence makes God truly and absolutely – None Like Him!


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[PaulSacramento]

One way of looking at it that helps some people and gets them out of the "God is God's name" mindset is this:
God is to God what Human is to Human.
Think it as a classification of a being, not the name/identity of that being.
If a human begets a person, that person is a human but a different person.
God begot Jesus and that makes Jesus God ( same nature NOT same person).
Because God is GOD the perfect union of Father, Son and Spirit makes them ONE in all ways YET they are separate.
Remember this key point:
God is what God is, whether we can comprehend or not is irrelevant to what God is and according to OT prophecy and NT direct testimony, Jesus is God, just like The Father.

[secretfire6]

I am absolutely serious PeteSinCA. I have already posted a link here in this thread to the very things you asked for as well as in another thread called "why is this in the Bible?" started by other folks. In fact I might have posted 2 different links in one of these threads. The 2 most important names/writings you need to check are Clement of Alexandria, who was a church historian and a disciple of Kefa. The other name is Origen. Pretty much anyone from them until 263 A.D. will show the divergence from what the apostles spread from Jesus, to what became the Roman church.

In view of the paragraph below, it looks possible that I misunderstood your post. Either way, Clement of Alexandria and Origen were very prolific writers. Each takes up more than half of a very thick volume in the Ante-Nicene Fathers set. That's why I asked for work name, book and chapter reference. I'll try to go back and find the links you posted.

The next thing I say is going to confuse some. The father is God, yes. The holy spirit is God, yes. The son is God,yes. So how does that make the trinity wrong? Can anyone answer? (hint: it's not modal-ism)

I was saying that the Trinity teaching, as it is commonly presented (e.g. in the Lutheran Church in which I was raised), is true: three distinct persons (i.e. not modalism); each described as God (i.e. not Arianism or any other form of unitarianism); one God (i.e. not tritheism).

Oh, well yeah I'd agree with that. Jesus is a person and is distinct from the father. He has his own Consciousness and will. Holy spirit I'm unsure about. I asked last time I was on if there were events in the scripture that showed interaction between Father and Holy spirit to show that it is a distinct entity with consciousness and not a description of a force or revelation among the people. ( like when people say " I was filled with holy spirit and _____ happened" or "the holy spirit fell upon them and they began to speak in new tongues") That kind of sounds like an awakening, an energy or force that took place rather than a person. I'll have to read down and check if anyone answered yet.

[Seraph]

I have a question, doesn't the idea of God being three distinct persons yet one God contradict the idea of divine simplicity? Three eternal persons don't seem to me to be simple enough to be incontingent. When talks of God as incontingent come up, God's simplicity and "oneness" seem to be very important, yet the "model" of the Trinity seems quite complex.

I know modalism is basically regarded as heresy among a lot of Christian thinkers, but it seems to me to be more based solely on words of the Bible than the Trinity, which seems to me to be a doctrine that was created using the Bible, but injects a lot of ideas that are not found in it. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit each being God are found in the Bible, but the common "the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit, but all ARE God" I don't think are.

[secretfire6]

...Is there something in the Hebrew OT that I've been missing? Something that shows a personal interaction between holy spirit and the father or shows them being in separate places at once or doing different things at the same time? for example we can tell in the NT that Jesus is separate from the father and Jesus is separate from Holy spirit because they interact between each other and all that. Can we find that for the father and holy spirit?

Yes, it is all over the OT, I posted a few a few frames back.

For ease, look these verses over: Isa 41:4, Isa 48:12 - write down who was speaking.

Now read Rev 1:17, 18 and see Rev 22:12,13,14,15,16 and note who is talking...

Next read Isa 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." NASB

Note the titles used LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts and then the I AM statement...

Who is the real King of Israel and who is Israel's redeemer?

Which Hebrew word was used and translated in the text - God?

That is your first lesson...
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I'm going to respond to these one at a time so I make sure that I'm following. The Hebrew word that appears as LORD is Yahoweh, which is the ancient Hebrew's word for the all inclusive idea of God, is that correct? I halted a study of that word because so much of what I found about was opinion based. I'm not even sure if that's the correct full word. How did we get from YHWH to "lord"? Lord is a very generic title that could apply to Christ as well as the father without telling us anything about their relationship. I usually associate the statements "I am the first and the last" with the spirit of the Christ, but could that be an assumption from years with the AOG? Isa 41:4 seems to be the spirit of the Christ speaking. Isa 48:6 started to sound like the Christ too, until the statement "Lord of the hosts" which I'm taking to mean "father of the spirits"? The talk of being the creator of all things puts the identity of this speaker as God all inclusive as well. The Revelation verses are quite clearly the Christ, however at this point in time is fully reunited with the Father, so I would expect to see them share titles and phrases that show that united being. Can we show that unity before Jesus was baptized? That's another reason I was looking for OT examples, mainly for the Holy spirit though. Christ is the redeemer of all people and I may need to ask for clarification on the last question. You want me to find the Hebrew word that is translated as "God" in Isaiah 44:6?

"and I the first and I the last the host of lord and his redeemer of Israel the king the lord says thus [there is] god not and beside me the last" The Hebrew word is Elohim.