Evidence for God from Science

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Oh..okay...yeah..Hitler was a horrible Christian.

Seriously? Maybe a "horrible anti-Christ"... look into reputable biographers outside your Atheistic sources.

Um...so you're saying that there was no involvement religion wise with the fellow, then? (Note that, as always seems to happen hence my 'Godwin' comment, is that mentioning Hitler seems to thence derail threads)

I'm saying actually take some time out to investigate your belief that he was Christian... from neutral sources that are neither pro-Christianity or pro-Atheism.

It is clear you'll mistrust anything I say on the matter so rather pointless me saying anything beyond pointing it out.

Kurieuo wrote:I'm saying actually take some time out to investigate your belief that he was Christian... from neutral sources that are neither pro-Christianity or pro-Atheism.

It is clear you'll mistrust anything I say on the matter so rather pointless me saying anything beyond pointing it out.

Right...and having done a couple of hours net searching...I'm still not finding anything that says Hitler was a Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Taosit or such....

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I'm saying actually take some time out to investigate your belief that he was Christian... from neutral sources that are neither pro-Christianity or pro-Atheism.

It is clear you'll mistrust anything I say on the matter so rather pointless me saying anything beyond pointing it out.

Right...and having done a couple of hours net searching...I'm still not finding anything that says Hitler was a Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Taosit or such....

Much cheers to all.

Sorry, but I just don't believe you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Kurieuo wrote:Sorry, but I just don't believe you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

*Nods* Yup...looked at the Wiki.... That page still doesn't say he was Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist, Taoist etc....

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Sorry, but I just don't believe you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

*Nods* Yup...looked at the Wiki.... That page still doesn't say he was Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist, Taoist etc....

Much cheers to all.

Did I say that? Your comment associating Hitler as a Christian is looking quite foolish now Thad.

Then rather than just admit and move on, you make a game of it. Seems you have more time on your hands then perhaps you often let on. But this is also quite revealing to me about where you are in your life's journey.

In any case, I better back off. Because it seems Hitler like yourself was also raised somewhat with a Catholicism that he ended up repudiating.

Kurieuo wrote: Did I say that? Your comment associating Hitler as a Christian is looking quite foolish now Thad.

Then rather than just admit and move on, you make a game of it. Seems you have more time on your hands then perhaps you often let on. But this is also quite revealing to me about where you are in your life's journey.

In any case, I better back off. Because it seems Hitler like yourself was also raised somewhat with a Catholicism that he ended up repudiating.

*Shakes head* Well...it's good that you got a chuckle out of something.

There's more in regards to Christianity within the pages of Hitler's life than any other beliefs.

As for "But that doesn't make him a Christian", fine...You say he's not a christian, who am I to argue with your point of view?

Although why I have to defend something that some one else started...I am really not sure.

Much cheers to all.

Just in case Thad missed it I have copied from the Wiki article and Highlighted the important bits.

Adolf Hitler was raised by an anticlerical, sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother. Baptized and confirmed as a child in Austria, Adolf Hitler was raised by an anticlerical, sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother. Baptized and confirmed as a child in Austria, he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In adulthood, Hitler became disdainful of Christianity, but in seeking out and in trying to retain power in Germany, he was prepared to set aside his views on religion out of political considerations. He repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science.[1] It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.[2][3] The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler's Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper. In adulthood, Hitler became disdainful of Christianity, but in seeking out and in trying to retain power in Germany, he was prepared to set aside his views on religion out of political considerations. He repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science.[1] It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.[2][3] The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian. This view is evidenced in sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann which are contained within Hitler's Table Talk, an influential translation of which was completed by historian Hugh Trevor-Roper.

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Did I say that? Your comment associating Hitler as a Christian is looking quite foolish now Thad.

Then rather than just admit and move on, you make a game of it. Seems you have more time on your hands then perhaps you often let on. But this is also quite revealing to me about where you are in your life's journey.

In any case, I better back off. Because it seems Hitler like yourself was also raised somewhat with a Catholicism that he ended up repudiating.

*Shakes head* Well...it's good that you got a chuckle out of something.

There's more in regards to Christianity within the pages of Hitler's life than any other beliefs.

As for "But that doesn't make him a Christian", fine...You say he's not a christian, who am I to argue with your point of view?

Although why I have to defend something that some one else started...I am really not sure.

Much cheers to all.

Thad, I didn't get a chuckle.

I just wish skeptics like yourself would sometimes question their own beliefs and sources.

It is ultimately out of a desire to reveal truth, rather than poke fun, that I put time into writing here. Nuts often need a hammer to crack though, which is why I might appear to jester or be extremely critical and aggressive in tone at times. I have little patience when I believe people's lives are actually at stake. I do often wonder though why those like yourself are here? What drives you to respond or debate Christians?

Also, re-read my posts. I never stated either way whether I believed Hitler Christian or not, but rather I explicitly stated my opinion wouldn't matter to you (which it obviously doesn't). Instead I encouraged you to do your own research from neutral sources, rather than your secular ones. You say you spent hours, and I must assume these hours came before my post encouraging you to research him since you responded to me in a matter of minutes.

But, then I called your bluff, because anyone who has seriously read up on the guy would question your belief that Hitler was Christian. Rather than give my opinion though, which I know you hold little regard for, I referred you to an easily found article at Wikipedia (which is often moderated in a manner that is less than favorable towards Christianity).

And still... there is persistence your end it seems to cling to your original statement and belief re: Hitler's Christianity. Have a read of what Daniel quoted. There is more at the link. Otherwise, happy to move on. I just encourage you to have a healthy skepticism which includes questioning your own anti-Christian beliefs and "ammo", not simply those who hold religious beliefs or believe that God exists.

Kurieuo wrote:Thad, I didn't get a chuckle.

I just wish skeptics like yourself would sometimes question their own beliefs and sources.

It is ultimately out of a desire to reveal truth, rather than poke fun, that I put time into writing here. Nuts often need a hammer to crack though, which is why I might appear to jester or be extremely critical and aggressive in tone at times. I have little patience when I believe people's lives are actually at stake. I do often wonder though why those like yourself are here? What drives you to respond or debate Christians?

Also, re-read my posts. I never stated either way whether I believed Hitler Christian or not, but rather I explicitly stated my opinion wouldn't matter to you (which it obviously doesn't). Instead I encouraged you to do your own research from neutral sources, rather than your secular ones. You say you spent hours, and I must assume these hours came before my post encouraging you to research him since you responded to me in a matter of minutes.

But, then I called your bluff, because anyone who has seriously read up on the guy would question your belief that Hitler was Christian. Rather than give my opinion though, which I know you hold little regard for, I referred you to an easily found article at Wikipedia (which is often moderated in a manner that is less than favorable towards Christianity).

And still... there is persistence your end it seems to cling to your original statement and belief re: Hitler's Christianity. Have a read of what Daniel quoted. There is more at the link. Otherwise, happy to move on. I just encourage you to have a healthy skepticism which includes questioning your own anti-Christian beliefs and "ammo", not simply those who hold religious beliefs or believe that God exists.

Okay....working tho=rough the Hitler side quest. We can see from the Wiki that the fellow was baptized a Roman Christian. He may have lapsed (As in stopped going to church etc) BUT he was never ex-communicated, as far as I'm aware. Hence, by from Roman Catholic side of things, he is still (Probably with a lot of wincing and back dating of things if they don't like it) A denomination of Christian.

Now... we can all agree that Hitler was a bad person as well as being a bad Christian (Of the Roman Catholic denomination) etc.

As for saying Hitler etc are bad people. Yes, I can say they were bad people....Based on the knowledge/education/social more etc of the secular society in which I have grown up and lived in.

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:Now... we can all agree that Hitler was a bad person as well as being a bad Christian (Of the Roman Catholic denomination) etc.

Nope, we can't agree. You are in the dark, Thadeyus: you appear to not know what a Christian is. Hint: it has nothing to do with one's denomination, or whether one has gone through the ritual of baptism or not.

Could you tell us what a Christian is?

FL

Kurieuo wrote:Many Atheists believe morality is simply something to be shaken off by those who know better.

Statements that begin with variations of the phrase "many people" often appear to be meaningful, when in fact they are meaningless (and often pejorative) appeals to anonymous authority. Kind of a cheap trick, really.

Now, in response to your questions:

Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" to kill off the weak and helpless? Emotions aside, why or why not?

Generally speaking I believe that it's wrong, although there are some situations where it would be morally acceptable to do so. For example, I have no issue with assisted suicide, provided that there's appropriate oversight to ensure that the patient's wishes are actually being honored.

As for why, I think that morality pretty much comes down to the Golden Rule. The weak and helpless deserve the same level of respect and personal autonomy as anyone else, and human life has value.

Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" for man to rape women? Emotions aside, why or why not?

Wrong.

Again, Golden Rule. Personal autonomy. Our bodies are our own.

Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" to kill off infants? Emotions aside, why or why not?

Wrong.

Golden Rule. Personal autonomy. All human life has value.

Kurieuo wrote:Finally, do you believe we are free to make choices and act them out, or is "who we are" purely determined by our physiological make-up?

It's not an either/or issue. We have free will and can make our own choices, but only within the broader context of our social and economic circumstances, physical and mental health, intelligence, education, life experience, and awareness of our options.

For example, my sister-in-law got CP as the result of an accident in the hospital. and just like that she lost a ton of options. She's quadriplegic and legally blind, so she is pretty much at the mercy of her aides and her family. Obviously none of those things were her choice. Still, that doesn't mean that she has no choices available to her. She can hire her own staff and manage them well or poorly, as she sees fit. She can spend all of her time alone at home, or she can get out and volunteer or socialize. She can save her money or spend it frivolously. So saying that she is "free to make choices and act them out" is inaccurate until you add a bunch of caveats, but that doesn't mean that who she is and how she lives are purely determined by her physiological make-up, either.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Now... we can all agree that Hitler was a bad person as well as being a bad Christian (Of the Roman Catholic denomination) etc.

Nope, we can't agree. You are in the dark, Thadeyus: you appear to not know what a Christian is. Hint: it has nothing to do with one's denomination, or whether one has gone through the ritual of baptism or not.

Could you tell us what a Christian is?

Well, whatever dictionary Google uses says that a Christian is "a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings." That's what I've always understood the word to mean, but I have a hunch that you're itching to provide a definition of your own. So enlighten us. What's your definition of "Christian?"

I know people, some very close to me that would kill baby or cause the death by neglecting something if the baby was blind, deaf, etc...

1over137 wrote:I know people, some very close to me that would kill baby or cause the death by neglecting something if the baby was blind, deaf, etc...

Why? I mean what's their justification for that decision?

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Now... we can all agree that Hitler was a bad person as well as being a bad Christian (Of the Roman Catholic denomination) etc.

Nope, we can't agree. You are in the dark, Thadeyus: you appear to not know what a Christian is. Hint: it has nothing to do with one's denomination, or whether one has gone through the ritual of baptism or not.

Could you tell us what a Christian is?

FL

SkepticalSkeeter wrote: Well, whatever dictionary Google uses says that a Christian is "a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings." That's what I've always understood the word to mean, but I have a hunch that you're itching to provide a definition of your own. So enlighten us. What's your definition of "Christian?"

^ I like this post above by SkepticalSeeker.

I was going to say that I was under the impression that once baptized into the Roman Catholic faith...One was 'On their books' so to speak forever. Regardless of whether said person become a non-believer (Or is the term I'm looking for 'Apostate'? )

Until one was excommunicated and/or such.

Still your information/definition obviously varies.

Much cheers to all.

Thadeyus wrote:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Thadeyus wrote:Now... we can all agree that Hitler was a bad person as well as being a bad Christian (Of the Roman Catholic denomination) etc.

Nope, we can't agree. You are in the dark, Thadeyus: you appear to not know what a Christian is. Hint: it has nothing to do with one's denomination, or whether one has gone through the ritual of baptism or not.

Could you tell us what a Christian is?

FL

SkepticalSkeeter wrote: Well, whatever dictionary Google uses says that a Christian is "a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings." That's what I've always understood the word to mean, but I have a hunch that you're itching to provide a definition of your own. So enlighten us. What's your definition of "Christian?"

^ I like this post above by SkepticalSeeker.

I was going to say that I was under the impression that once baptized into the Roman Catholic faith...One was 'On their books' so to speak forever. Regardless of whether said person become a non-believer (Or is the term I'm looking for 'Apostate'? )

Until one was excommunicated and/or such.

Still your information/definition obviously varies.

Much cheers to all.

Oh, yes...a Google definition of what a Christian is! The Roman Catholic angle is just as silly: what happens if you are a baptized Catholic, then proclaim yourself an atheist and never get excommunicated? Are you still a Christian?! C'mon, Thadeyus, use the brain God gave you!

I won't tell you the answer. I want you to find it for yourself in the Bible: go to the Source! That way you'll be less dependent on others and learn to think on your own.

FL