Evidence for God from Science

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:B.W.
I don't want to be impolite and not reply, especially since you have asked twice for a reply, but my reply won't please you. You see, I don't want to have that kind of discussion. I am glad to answer sincere questions about my religion, but like you, I can detect easily when someone is trying to change me. I love Christian Science. Not interested in changing. A person has to want to change before you can convert them. I'm satisfied and very grateful for my religion. Your time is better used somewhere else.
In sincere fellowship of Christ,
Ann

Hi Ann, no one is trying to change you, you did state earlier that these verses were special to you but never said as to why they were. Since they are, why are the special to you?

Recall you stated this:

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:Hi,

I am grateful to this site for making me laugh very very hard. Laughter is the best. It's wonderful.

Anyone had any healings lately? For the last ten years, I have been keeping a log of healings of problems in my own life, solely through prayer. So far it's about 120 pages long in point form. Lots of healings of every kind. I know I would not remember them all if I didn't write them down. I recommend keeping this kind of a log! It's inspiring.

Ann

What is your point in writing this if not an attempt to change anothers mind?

with sincere friendliest tone: Cuts both ways...
-
-
-

I think also BW that your questions are off topic and it is grossly unfair that you are hounding Ann with these questions, I understand why your doing it but if Ann is not prepared to talk about this subject then you should let it go especially since it is not on topic.

I however would like to ask Ann an on topic question regarding healing and medicinal intervention.

Ann I am curious, why would God give us the gifts to discover the world around us, to develop medicine and procedures that help many people live a healthy life and yet you would rather try to rely on prayer alone.
For me it is more a holistic approach, I pray but I also proactively take action by seeking medical assistance because it makes no sense to me to just rely on prayer alone when God has endowed us with intellect to discover ways of making ourselves healthier. I am interested in the logic behind it because from the way I understand it if I followed this logic to it's logical conclusion I would have to reject all technologies and live a life totally reliant on prayer and God's constant intervention.

Thank you for your time.

The logic of forsaking doctors for just prayer-based/holistic healing is very troubling. We don't do that for any other difficulty. If your car becomes inoperable, do you take it to a mechanic or just pray and wait for God to perform a miracle to cure the problem? If the plumbing in your house bursts, do you wait for God to plug the leak, or do you call a plumber? God is just as able to miraculously repair our a car or fix our plumbing as He is of healing us from sickness. Just because God can and does perform miracles of healing does not mean we should always expect a miracle instead of seeking the help of individuals who possess the knowledge and skill to assist us. In fact, God gives mechanics, plumbers and doctors their abilities. And He often uses Christians with specialized skills to minister to others. And whether with a doctor or a mechanic, our faith is to be in God who sent them, who gave them specialized skills and expertise.

There are many verses that speak of using “medical treatments” such as applying bandages (Isaiah 1:6), oil (James 5:14), oil and wine (Luke 10:34), leaves (Ezekiel 47:12), wine (1 Timothy 5:23), and salves, particularly the “balm of Gilead” (Jeremiah 8:22). Also, Luke, the author of Acts and the Gospel of Luke, is referred to by Paul as “the beloved physician” (Colossians 4:14). And note that seeking physicians and using “earthly” remedies are not condemned in Scripture. In fact, medical treatments are viewed positively. When Hezekiah, the king of Judah, was sick he wept sore and prayed to God for his recovery. His prayer was heard and Isaiah the prophet who was sent by God to him, said: "Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee." (2 Kings 20:1-6) But how was Hezekiah healed? The record states: "And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered." (2 Kings 20:7) The lump of figs used to cure the boil was a medical treatment of the day.

WHO but God created the many plants and herbs which many medicines have been created from? Opium, cocaine, strychnine, and many other drugs are extracted or prepared from plants. And what do we see in the Parable? The Samaritan bound up of the robbed and beaten man's wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. The Samaritan soothed the man's wounds with medicine and bandaged them" - he didn't just pray over him and wait. What did Paul suggest? "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (1 Timothy 5:23) Obviously, that "little wine" was medicine. Even Jesus said, " “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick." (Matthew 9:12)

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I think also BW that your questions are off topic and it is grossly unfair that you are hounding Ann with these questions, I understand why your doing it but if Ann is not prepared to talk about this subject then you should let it go especially since it is not on topic.

I however would like to ask Ann an on topic question regarding healing and medicinal intervention.

Ann I am curious, why would God give us the gifts to discover the world around us, to develop medicine and procedures that help many people live a healthy life and yet you would rather try to rely on prayer alone.
For me it is more a holistic approach, I pray but I also proactively take action by seeking medical assistance because it makes no sense to me to just rely on prayer alone when God has endowed us with intellect to discover ways of making ourselves healthier. I am interested in the logic behind it because from the way I understand it if I followed this logic to it's logical conclusion I would have to reject all technologies and live a life totally reliant on prayer and God's constant intervention.

Thank you for your time.

Daniel I appreciate your concern...

Please note that folks often come on here to seek converts. I am not saying Ann is doing so. However, what concerns me is this after working in Apologetic's for years now is seeing how someone from a cult background plays the sympathy card to divide and conquer the house. Seen this too much and I see it happening again as evidence by what is going on here.

Let me be clear, healings come by God's sovereign will alone and not by methods. As nice as a person sounds, if they are not willing to define and discuss what they believe and instead spend time garnering a sympathetic following - take note and beware...

Daniel, have you investigated Christian Science? What it says about Jesus - what it says the word Christ means - and that the Holy Spirit is taught to be Christian Science principles and not the living person of the Godhead? Cannot you see the division being caused here and the play on sympathy used to divide the house with no honesty in discussing what one believes?

Yes, we all like Ann and she is welcome here to discuss issues as we all are. She may think she knows what I am getting at but I can assure you, her, others - she miss-read my intentions. Let's discuss why a certain chapter in Romans is so fond to her. That's all. An unwillingness to do so shows that one may not be here other than troll for converts, dividing the house. So if Ann could prove me wrong on this... so be it.

Healings do happen - I seen enough of the real ones and still do. Working on the Reservations, I have seen how Shamans heal as well too, by invoking methods. I know the history of the Mind Sciences and there offshoots very well and seen the same healings that this branch invokes as the same as Shamanism's witchcraft invokes. The Bible explicitly warns not to go that route.

So can you understand my concern here and now watch long time members choosing sides? wow should I say more?

In other word since we all like Ann, we just follow along blindly, because she sounds nice and never dare ask any substantive questions to her?

I would suggest that you explore cultist tactics a bit more...
-
-
-

B W thank you for your reply.

I have looked into Christian science and I understand that what they believe.

So can you understand my concern here and now watch long time members choosing sides? wow should I say more?

I really don't think anyone is choosing sides, I am not divided against you, I agree with you but just not the approach of it.

I really don't think having a disagreement is equal to becoming divided, that sounds like something a cult would say to stop any dissension.

In other word since we all like Ann, we just follow along blindly, because she sounds nice and never dare ask any substantive questions to her?

I think it is quite the contrary, I have asked questions of her but at the same time trying to be respectful and to follow forum rules of staying on topic and if she is not ready to talk about certain topics yet then I will leave them alone. I wouldn't call that blindly following, I would call it being "Wise as a serpent, yet gentle as a dove".

Anyway I think we will have to agree to disagree, you have your methods and I have mine, I just hope she comes back to answer.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:...Anyway I think we will have to agree to disagree, you have your methods and I have mine, I just hope she comes back to answer.

I do too. She did miss read me regarding Romans 5 passages. When someone mentions that these verses are special to them, it would be nice to know how they are special...

Blessings!
-
-
-

Love is patient ...

B.W. I like the verses in Romans 5 as much as I like all the rest of the Bible. It's my favorite book. Sorry to disappoint. Ann

Daniel, Thanks for your question. I like depending entirely on God in every thing, because it hasn't failed me. Slow or fast, all the health issues and other issues (employment, finding lost objects, decision making, everything) have been solved through Christ, whether it happens instantly or over a period of years. It works. It's a way of life. I have restricted my examples to a tiny percent of the ones that have happened to me. Every Wed. evening I hear testimonies from others, and then there's the testimonies in our periodicals over the course of more than a hundred years. Ann

Phillipthecurious, You have found lots of references to medicine in the Bible. You will find uncountable references in the Bible, especially the New Testament, to spiritual healing. Jesus taught it. If you had lived back then, he might have taught you too along with the 70 he sent out. If I know how to fix my car, I don't have to go to the mechanic. I do respect doctors as people and their work is much needed. Two close friends and a loved relative are doctors. Ann

(Off topic comment. I have just checked out the "Beliefs" page on this website. I had thought this website was just a free for all, but now I see that when people come to this website, they are virtually walking into a church with set beliefs!! These set beliefs are partly in agreement with my own and partly not. By walking into your "church" (website) I open myself to being the subject of the day, the focus of your attentions!! And naturally, you will all start to work on what we don't have in common because you want me to be like you. That isn't interesting to me, because I'm not searching for a new religion. Also, I think my behavior has been rude in light of this. If I had a reason to visit another denomination, I wouldn't waltz in and say, "Anyone had any healings lately?" I would just be quiet.)

Ann wrote:
(Off topic comment. I have just checked out the "Beliefs" page on this website. I had thought this website was just a free for all, but now I see that when people come to this website, they are virtually walking into a church with set beliefs!! These set beliefs are partly in agreement with my own and partly not. By walking into your "church" (website) I open myself to being the subject of the day, the focus of your attentions!! And naturally, you will all start to work on what we don't have in common because you want me to be like you. That isn't interesting to me, because I'm not searching for a new religion. Also, I think my behavior has been rude in light of this. If I had a reason to visit another denomination, I wouldn't waltz in and say, "Anyone had any healings lately?" I would just be quiet.)

Ann,

Those beliefs are Rich Deem's beliefs. He's the founder and owner of the site. Most members here believe in some of the same beliefs that Rich believes in.

The board purpose gives people an idea what the board's purpose is. So, while one doesn't have to be a Christian to be a member here, the board is primarily meant to give encouragement to Christians.

And if you look at the members here, at least the members who participate on a regular basis, there's no one denomination. We each bring our own differing beliefs.

What you may be noticing, and it may seem rude to you, is that we don't allow this forum to be a platform for people to promote non-Christian beliefs. We allow and certainly want open dialog with anybody, as long as the rules are followed. At one point, this forum got to be just a place where non-Christians put down Christianity. And that got away from what Rich wanted as his purpose.

So, you'll find, like the board purpose says here:

This board is not for those who have strongly made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to put down, debate, and argue against essential Christian beliefs. As such, those who are Christian, have not made up their minds, or desire civilised discussions on Christianity are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged and will be heavily moderated.

Those who argue against essential Christian beliefs, are heavily moderated.

Thanks for explaining at length, RickD.
BTW, I was concerned about MY possible rudeness.

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:Thanks for explaining at length, RickD.
BTW, I was concerned about MY possible rudeness.

I understand. We're kinda used to pushy, rude cultists like yourself.

Jk, I don't find your posts rude. You're a very encouraging person. It's a nice gift to have. With all the stress people have, encouragement helps a lot.

Love is patient ...

And as my wife is so found of reminding me, "VERY patient!"

I'm laughing and smiling and thanking you both, RickD and Phillipthecurious.

(You can join my cult ANY time! Be forewarned though, all we ever eat is candy.)

Ann, candy is good - particularly dark chocolate with almonds However, it's not the candy you eat that I'm worried about.

What Christian Scientists teach and believe about Jesus will lead them to an eternity apart from God. And that is a very serious thing - a horrible destiny that need not incur. I hope you believe that Jesus was God in the flesh - fully man and fully God, SINLESS, crucified to death for the sins of the world on a Roman cross, physically died and resurrected, that He will come again, and that our belief in Him, His Resurrection and our acceptance of His offer of salvation/repenting of our sins/committing to following Him - these are what lead to Heaven. Anything contradicting these are a false gospel. What do you believe about these?

Please look at items 3-9 on the following page - it explains Christian Science teachings/belief. Does this basically reflect what you believe? And please tell me specifically if you basically believe what is related in numbers 4, 6 and 7.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/science.htm

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:B.W. I like the verses in Romans 5 as much as I like all the rest of the Bible. It's my favorite book. Sorry to disappoint. Ann

Daniel, Thanks for your question. I like depending entirely on God in every thing, because it hasn't failed me. Slow or fast, all the health issues and other issues (employment, finding lost objects, decision making, everything) have been solved through Christ, whether it happens instantly or over a period of years. It works. It's a way of life. I have restricted my examples to a tiny percent of the ones that have happened to me. Every Wed. evening I hear testimonies from others, and then there's the testimonies in our periodicals over the course of more than a hundred years. Ann

Phillipthecurious, You have found lots of references to medicine in the Bible. You will find uncountable references in the Bible, especially the New Testament, to spiritual healing. Jesus taught it. If you had lived back then, he might have taught you too along with the 70 he sent out. If I know how to fix my car, I don't have to go to the mechanic. I do respect doctors as people and their work is much needed. Two close friends and a loved relative are doctors. Ann

(Off topic comment. I have just checked out the "Beliefs" page on this website. I had thought this website was just a free for all, but now I see that when people come to this website, they are virtually walking into a church with set beliefs!! These set beliefs are partly in agreement with my own and partly not. By walking into your "church" (website) I open myself to being the subject of the day, the focus of your attentions!! And naturally, you will all start to work on what we don't have in common because you want me to be like you. That isn't interesting to me, because I'm not searching for a new religion. Also, I think my behavior has been rude in light of this. If I had a reason to visit another denomination, I wouldn't waltz in and say, "Anyone had any healings lately?" I would just be quiet.)

Yes, I too like theses verse from Romans too as they remains me of what the Lord has done...

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

I like that, justified by His Grace alone through faith (Eph 2:8-10c) we have peace with God because what Jesus accomplished, not what I do, not by tapping into secrets of science, not by what others say I must do or not do but by what Jesus, alone, accomplished. What He accomplished is given as a free unearned gift bought for by the blood of Love shed... This love bled so I can wake up and see what really defines sin to save me from being banished away from God's love forever... into a place without love or hope or God.

Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly

Here I draw comfort that no matter what comes my way, he will see me thru it all and never let me go. Healings are by his sovereign decree, and if he elects to say no - that is okay. He is in charge, not I. All trials and sufferings are real and not illusions and expose the nature of evil, and sin in profound ways - conquering these. It is thru these, we become transformed into whom God destined us to become, his adopted sons and daughters to live as his special treasure forever. The Lord sent forth the living person, not a science, not a force, but the very essence of his Spirit - His own living Holy Spirit to seal, equip, sanctify, and empower us to live according to his plans and purposes. No force, no deeds, no science can save us, because we are helpless without Jesus. Notice it says Christ died. No annoiting force can die as it is a force, this Christ is the title of Jesus the Messiah who died for you and I to face the wrath appointed to us and expose the reason for this wrath as well - rebellion against God, living to call our shots, and manipulating God to perform for us based upon what we do and say.

Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

It is through his death upon that cross that exposes what is in our hearts so that we awaken and come to our senses that we need Him to redeem our souls from facing his eternal wrath. This wrath is not sickness, nor is it illusion - it is real and so many need awoken to it so they too can see and return to Jesus...

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

You see, we were enemies to God and only reconciliation comes by his work, not ours. Sadly so many seek to hogwash the need for reconciliation back to God and instead choose their own methods and demand their ways and continue to attempt to manipulate God thru words, beliefs, and incantations to get their own desires to triumph over God's ways. What do you call a person who seeks to toy with you, game you, flatter you, use you to get their gets from you? How have we all done so and even world religions do the same - toy with God, game him, flatter him with words and actions and beliefs just to get manipulate God to bow to our needs, wants, desires? How have you done so?

Without that reconciliation brought thru Jesus' actions upon that cross, we face wrath, God's wrath for all our toying and gaming we do. How much does Christian Science toys with God and seeks to manipulate him and change him into another image not found in the bible? We can talk much about love and hide behind the love placard defined by us but doesn't that seek to manipulate love - God's love - for ones own advantage to escape consequences and shortcomings?

What I like about Romans chapter five is how is reveals these truths and so much more. How we need a savior and a savior from what...

From what Matthew chapters 26-27 reveals....

Bible quotes are from the NASB
-