Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:And Matthew 11?

How does Matthew 11 address my question?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

1over137 wrote:And Matthew 11?

How does Matthew 11 address my question?

Ken

ok, I will write you something longer. Have patience.

God's apparent "invisibility" and requirement for faith could be viewed as a screening device. Many people only want what God can do for them, treating Him as a vending machine. I'm not sure if this is a good analogy, but someone who has just won a powerball lottery of hundreds of millions of dollars has to be careful of people who would claim to be his friends. Would he want people who only want his money to be his friends. All of a sudden long lost "friends" and relatives come out of the woodwork. That is why I hate it when his identity is made known to the public (also because of likely robbery).

God has made Himself known through creation. If one seeks Him for the right reason, He can be found. Also, He is not obligated to answer an unsaved person unless they are seeking repentance.

Matthew 11:25-26
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

So, God reveals himself to the humble. He does not like pride, arrogance, boasting.

Before, when I said 'maybe' someone would silence that guy offering money for miracle, I thought about apostle Paul in my mind. He opposed
Christians, persecuted them, was killing them and yet Christ appeared to Him and Paul became new person, even apostle. But he was special person with special purpose.

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

Look at the appearance of the word humble throughout the whole Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?ve ... spanend=73

So, I doubt there will be voice from Heaven recorded by many.
Well, maybe at the last days when it will be too late.

1over137 wrote:Matthew 11:25-26
25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

So, God reveals himself to the humble. He does not like pride, arrogance, boasting.

I would say it's even more fundamental than that. It isn't that God doesn't like pride. It is completely contrary to His nature. God is humble is the very purest meaning of the word. In fact, He defines the word.

If any being had the innate right to pride, it would be God. People gripe and groan about suffering in the world, or why God doesn't do anything about evil. But let's look at this in perspective. If God is the creator and sustainer of the entire cosmos, then what are we in comparison? We are not even a colony of ants on a random hill in some obscure land. And yet, God was intentional about our existence. Not only that, He humbled Himself to become one of us. (Phil. 2:7) The only reason people have value is because of God. Man's identity and value is based in God and God alone. Without God, what is man? An accident of a mindless, purposeless creation. A well evolved ape. And yet, when atheist consider that God might exist, they assume he has some moral obligation to them. On what basis?

The obviousness of God in the creation is beyond denial. Only a fool says in their heart there is no God. Saying that God should perform to appease selfish, unfounded skepticism is the epitomy of pride and foolishness. In other words, you are too full of pride to recognize even the basic evidences. And then you expect God (you know that most powerful being) to bow to your wishes and perform a magic trick to satisfy your foolishness. Yep, that makes sense. The Bible provides ample examples of people denying God, despite having overwhelming proof.

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

This is absolutely correct.
I've asked Atheist, "If there were indisputable evidence that the Bible were true, and thus Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" They emphatically said, "NO!!"
It is impossible for the proud to come to God.

Gilligan wrote:God has made Himself known through creation. If one seeks Him for the right reason, He can be found.

When you consider how many religions there are, how many denominations within each religion, and how many divisions there are within each denomination; why is it when people find God they have a hard time agreeing on who he is and what he expects of us? Now a voice from the sky, would clear all that up! Don't cha think?

Ken

jlay wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

This is absolutely correct.
I've asked Atheist, "If there were indisputable evidence that the Bible were true, and thus Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" They emphatically said, "NO!!"
It is impossible for the proud to come to God.

That's funny! I*ve asked Christians, "if there were indisputable evidence that the bible were false, and thus christianity were false, would you burn your bibles and become an atheist" They emphatically said "NO"!

I guess that kinda works both ways huh?


Ken

You know, if it were a recording of a voice from the sky, one could easily come up with a natural explanation. Say God were to actually do a voice from the sky for all to hear. People listen, some people get out their cell phones to record the audio. The audio even shows up in news broadcasts. There'd still be some naturalistic explanation that a person could come up with. "Oh, hey, someone is flying a helicopter that has powerful high-decibel speakers strapped to the bottom of it. Previously, a voice actor was hired to do the voice. All that's left is to play that voice at an immense volume and BAM, Voice of God hoax!"

One could even analyze the audio footage and perhaps track down the alleged voice actor responsible for the voice. "Oh hey, this sounds an awful lot like Norio Wakamoto! He must've been hired to do the voice of God!" says one debunker. Cue interview. Norio Wakamoto denies involvement in this. "Hmm, maybe some fan took clips of Norio Wakamoto's many voice roles and edited it together?"

Pardon the outlandish scenario above, but... it's to illustrate that people will find any excuse to deny that the voice came from God. It doesn't matter how many people heard it. They'll try to find another explanation for it. And it's not too hard to come up with an explanation, really, considering that the technology for such a hoax already exists.

Who's to say that if God were to make his voice heard from the sky, that people wouldn't simply deny it and find some natural explanation to explain it away? (I mean, sure, the voice of God would sound much more powerful and authoritative than Norio Wakamoto, but hey, Norio Wakamoto does have a voice that convincingly sounds like power and authority, for a human. X3)

Bottomline: The worst that would happen is that God would likely end up alienating more people this way than drawing them to him, as even the ones who accept that he is who he says he is, will still try to question him as to why there's so much evil in the world, or they will try to get something out of him as though he were some cosmic genie. Or they'll shrug, say "Well, that's new." and go about their lives, not really caring.

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Kenny wrote:

jlay wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

This is absolutely correct.
I've asked Atheist, "If there were indisputable evidence that the Bible were true, and thus Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" They emphatically said, "NO!!"
It is impossible for the proud to come to God.

That's funny! I*ve asked Christians, "if there were indisputable evidence that the bible were false, and thus christianity were false, would you burn your bibles and become an atheist" They emphatically said "NO"!

I guess that kinda works both ways huh?


Ken

What does your comment above have to do with your question for this thread? Absolutely nothing. That post was completely pointless.

FlawedIntellect wrote:You know, if it were a recording of a voice from the sky, one could easily come up with a natural explanation. Say God were to actually do a voice from the sky for all to hear. People listen, some people get out their cell phones to record the audio. The audio even shows up in news broadcasts. There'd still be some naturalistic explanation that a person could come up with. "Oh, hey, someone is flying a helicopter that has powerful high-decibel speakers strapped to the bottom of it. Previously, a voice actor was hired to do the voice. All that's left is to play that voice at an immense volume and BAM, Voice of God hoax!"

One could even analyze the audio footage and perhaps track down the alleged voice actor responsible for the voice. "Oh hey, this sounds an awful lot like Norio Wakamoto! He must've been hired to do the voice of God!" says one debunker. Cue interview. Norio Wakamoto denies involvement in this. "Hmm, maybe some fan took clips of Norio Wakamoto's many voice roles and edited it together?"

Pardon the outlandish scenario above, but... it's to illustrate that people will find any excuse to deny that the voice came from God. It doesn't matter how many people heard it. They'll try to find another explanation for it. And it's not too hard to come up with an explanation, really, considering that the technology for such a hoax already exists.

Who's to say that if God were to make his voice heard from the sky, that people wouldn't simply deny it and find some natural explanation to explain it away? (I mean, sure, the voice of God would sound much more powerful and authoritative than Norio Wakamoto, but hey, Norio Wakamoto does have a voice that convincingly sounds like power and authority, for a human. X3)

Bottomline: The worst that would happen is that God would likely end up alienating more people this way than drawing them to him, as even the ones who accept that he is who he says he is, will still try to question him as to why there's so much evil in the world, or they will try to get something out of him as though he were some cosmic genie. Or they'll shrug, say "Well, that's new." and go about their lives, not really caring.

You can believe that if you want but I disagree. If a voice came from the sky. Every military in the world would be involved; using f-16's radar, Satelites and the most advanced technology of today to find out where it came from and how it got there. when it is confirmed by every world leader that the one True God is behind the voice, I believe that would convert the majority of honest people who are looking for the truth.

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Kenny wrote:

jlay wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

This is absolutely correct.
I've asked Atheist, "If there were indisputable evidence that the Bible were true, and thus Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" They emphatically said, "NO!!"
It is impossible for the proud to come to God.

That's funny! I*ve asked Christians, "if there were indisputable evidence that the bible were false, and thus christianity were false, would you burn your bibles and become an atheist" They emphatically said "NO"!

I guess that kinda works both ways huh?


Ken

flawed intellect wrote:What does your comment above have to do with your question for this thread? Absolutely nothing. That post was completely pointless.

The comment in reference to the claim I was responding to. If you don't see the point, you might wanna look again.

Ken

Kenny wrote:You can believe that if you want but I disagree. If a voice came from the sky. Every military in the world would be involved; using f-16's radar, Satelites and the most advanced technology of today to find out where it came from and how it got there. when it is confirmed by every world leader that the one True God is behind the voice, I believe that would convert the majority of honest people who are looking for the truth.

History suggests otherwise. People in the present day deny that Jesus even existed in the first place, whereas no one in the history of the Early Church, or even before then, questioned whether or not he existed, for one, since it was pretty clear to those people at the time that he did exist. Rather, what they questioned was his divinity.
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Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

jlay wrote:

1over137 wrote:

Proud and arrogant people will not find God.

This is absolutely correct.
I've asked Atheist, "If there were indisputable evidence that the Bible were true, and thus Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?" They emphatically said, "NO!!"
It is impossible for the proud to come to God.

That's funny! I*ve asked Christians, "if there were indisputable evidence that the bible were false, and thus christianity were false, would you burn your bibles and become an atheist" They emphatically said "NO"!

I guess that kinda works both ways huh?


Ken

flawed intellect wrote:What does your comment above have to do with your question for this thread? Absolutely nothing. That post was completely pointless.

The comment in reference to the claim I was responding to. If you don't see the point, you might wanna look again.

Ken

FlawedIntellect wrote:

Kenny wrote:You can believe that if you want but I disagree. If a voice came from the sky. Every military in the world would be involved; using f-16's radar, Satelites and the most advanced technology of today to find out where it came from and how it got there. when it is confirmed by every world leader that the one True God is behind the voice, I believe that would convert the majority of honest people who are looking for the truth.

History suggests otherwise. People in the present day deny that Jesus even existed in the first place, whereas no one in the history of the Early Church, or even before then, questioned whether or not he existed, for one, since it was pretty clear to those people at the time that he did exist. Rather, what they questioned was his divinity.

You can't say "history suggests otherwise" because nothing in history can compare to a voice comming from the sky with today's technology avaliable to record it. True, many people do deny he existed because he never wrote anything down and they feel there isn't sufficient evidence to indicate he existed, but a voice from the sky with today's technology in place, there would be no doubt.

Ken

I'm not sure why this hasn't been expressed more thoroughly, although it has been alluded to it, and that is: God doesn't want to make it obvious.

From the absence of a voice in the sky, to the way our world looks, God isn't supposed to be undeniable. He gives us very strong arguments for the existence of Him, he gives us creation, he gives us an inner voice, he gives us philosophy and science, he gives us testimonies of near death experiences, he gives us his word (Bible), which is extremely factual and accurate, he gives us NEARLY undeniable proof that he exists. Regardles. People still find ways to explain it by naturalism. And that wasn't God's mistake; it was entirely intentional.

You can want undeniable proof, but that's not the deal. God wants your faith too. He makes it as easy as possible, but some people still want to deny the "voice in the sky".

Kenny wrote:

FlawedIntellect wrote:

Kenny wrote:You can believe that if you want but I disagree. If a voice came from the sky. Every military in the world would be involved; using f-16's radar, Satelites and the most advanced technology of today to find out where it came from and how it got there. when it is confirmed by every world leader that the one True God is behind the voice, I believe that would convert the majority of honest people who are looking for the truth.

History suggests otherwise. People in the present day deny that Jesus even existed in the first place, whereas no one in the history of the Early Church, or even before then, questioned whether or not he existed, for one, since it was pretty clear to those people at the time that he did exist. Rather, what they questioned was his divinity.

You can't say "history suggests otherwise" because nothing in history can compare to a voice comming from the sky with today's technology avaliable to record it. True, many people do deny he existed because he never wrote anything down and they feel there isn't sufficient evidence to indicate he existed, but a voice from the sky with today's technology in place, there would be no doubt.

Ken

How about a voice from a book - would that work for you. Same principle...

Why haven't you listened?

How about the voice from the earth, sea, sun, moon, sky, the entire universe. Same principle...

Why haven't you listened?

Kenny this issue isn't for us to prove anything to you but rather, why are you not listening?
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ryanbouma wrote:I'm not sure why this hasn't been expressed more thoroughly, although it has been alluded to it, and that is: God doesn't want to make it obvious.

From the absence of a voice in the sky, to the way our world looks, God isn't supposed to be undeniable. He gives us very strong arguments for the existence of Him, he gives us creation, he gives us an inner voice, he gives us philosophy and science, he gives us testimonies of near death experiences, he gives us his word (Bible), which is extremely factual and accurate, he gives us NEARLY undeniable proof that he exists. Regardles. People still find ways to explain it by naturalism. And that wasn't God's mistake; it was entirely intentional.

You can want undeniable proof, but that's not the deal. God wants your faith too. He makes it as easy as possible, but some people still want to deny the "voice in the sky".

God never changes; right? He is the same today, as he was yesterday; right? Yesterday he had no problem making it obvious! When Jesus was baptised, he had no problem with a voice comming from the sky, with moses he parted the Red Sea, with Jesus he turned water into wine, walked on water, and raised people from the dead! With Elijah he sent a whirlwind to Earth to take him to heaven, so if he is the same today, why isn't he doing any of that stuff today?

Ken

Kenny wrote:God never changes; right? He is the same today, as he was yesterday; right? Yesterday he had no problem making it obvious! When Jesus was baptised, he had no problem with a voice comming from the sky, with moses he parted the Red Sea, with Jesus he turned water into wine, walked on water, and raised people from the dead! With Elijah he sent a whirlwind to Earth to take him to heaven, so if he is the same today, why isn't he doing any of that stuff today?

I could answer you but you wouldn't understand. Plus, I like seeing you make a fool of yourself!

FL