All Men Are Created Equal

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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by PaulSacramento »

neo-x wrote:
Given the fact that no one has the right to sin, and given the fact that homosexual behavior is sinful, it is obviously impossible to argue that society, much less the Church, should endorse it by granting it the status of marriage. So the question becomes, at what level do we, as a society, deal with homosexual behavior? Sodomy laws would be the third and highest level. Social standards would point to social ostracization , for instance. Or we could just leave it as a strictly private matter and encourage people to overcome it through faith and their virtues. Note that if we deal with this at the second level, that includes doing so at the first; and if we deal with it at the third level, that includes dealing with it at both the first and second.

My own view is that this should be handled at the level of social standards. We should not make sodomy a legal offense. But it should be socially unacceptable, a shameful thing.
And that is precisely my point...you are shaming someone on something they have really no control of and over...how effective is that? A child who is born gay, even if you leave him in a population of 1 million heterosexuals, that child is gonna come out gay and the vice versa is true for heterosexuals. Your straight child isn't gonna turn gay just because he is raised among gay people. Gay children come normally from houses of heterosexuals. And what if they are created by God this way? What if we find that yes sexual orientation takes place in wombs? How natural or unnatural is that? And how adequate is the natural law for this type of thing. Homosexuality is a sin, the bible clearly says it, I have no moral confusion in that regard. But the natural law view is inadequate to address this because it assumes that it is out of sinful lust that such unions take place. The problem is not "sodomy is not natural" since that doesn't happen in female-female unions, the problem is of same-sex being together in all and every way, families aren't shaped this way. And I agree with you that such union is unnatural, but I also contend that it is not anything to be shameful of by the society I can understand it being shameful in the church but outside of church its only odd...but why shameful?

Outside of church our biblical values don't necessarily apply. Your definition of right or wrong is a biblical definition, its not democratic in nature, its theocratic...but outside the system is democratic or non-theocratic to be precise, that system has its entire own structure of assigning values.

Muslims do marriage, every other religious or non-religious groups do marriage, marriage is not exclusive to Christianity. We can regulate marriage inside the church but outside of it, that is a different problem.

Don't get me wrong Jac, I clearly see the problems the church face...I am not advocating that we allow gay marriage in church, but outside of church, I really don't see why not. And really don't see what we lose, and I do see what we gain, some trust, some confidence, may be some openness to the gospel, may be less hostility.

The real question, which in fact takes priority above all, is where do gays stand in the kingdom of God?...as a teacher, and outreach guy this is my supreme concern. At the end of the day, I want to save a gay teen, a gay lady, a gay guy, why not...and my question is what is their status in the church, are they saved brothers and sisters or are they people who are not welcome in the church but are saved nonetheless? Marriage is just a trivial matter in the bigger picture. The bigger picture is we alienate the gay community, or do we reach out to them?

My personal interaction has left me wondering a lot about this...gay and christian are at complete odds but should they have to be? And at what cost? At any forum, Christians have stereotype that leaves gay people quite scared for their own self respect. and yet somewhere I do believe that Gays if they believe in Christ, shall be saved, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Just some time ago, I held a gay teenager, crying over my shoulder because he was so willing to commit suicide that his family was pushing him to marry a girl and they would not accept him. What do I tell this guy? Stop being gay?...believe me I tried, didn't help. Stop having thoughts of sex? that hasn't helped either. Moreover he is a christian, I don't doubt he loves God. And my question is where does this boy stand? I can tell him that this is sin but I get blank stares in return, his obvious question was he can't be with a girl, that repels him and I can't blame him because I feel the same if I am to be asked to be gay.

And my concern is for asexual and transgender people too.

Our Lord taught Us all a lesson, a lesson of how to deal with sin, any sin really.
It isn't about agreeing with the sin, or accepting it.
It is about compassion - to (com) suffer with (passion).

I have dealt with people that are gay and people that are very anti-gay, violently so.
I have seen the effects of hatred and intolerance and lack of love.
Somehow I do not picture Jesus doing anything BUT comforting a person, gay or otherwise, in their sin and their inability to overcome that sin.
Is homosexuality a greater sin than theft? than adultery ( one of the big ones), than THE original sin?
No, it isn't.
How do we overcome sin?
WE don't, Christ does and He does with LOVE and GRACE.
There IS a right and wrong and deep down we ALL know it.
It is what we OUGHT to do.
Homosexuality is a sin and it is wrong BUT a far greater sin is hate.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by RickD »

I would think homosexual sin IS worse than theft.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Not to mention it's unnatural. It goes against God's natural order of man being with woman, and woman being with man.

Of course that's not saying homosexual sin is unforgivable.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:I would think homosexual sin IS worse than theft.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

Not to mention it's unnatural. It goes against God's natural order of man being with woman, and woman being with man.

Of course that's not saying homosexual sin is unforgivable.
Is it worse than adultery?
One can argue that it is not even one of the "big 10".
But that really isn't the point, is it?
Of course homosexuality is a forgivable sin, other than blasphemy of the HS, every sin is forgivable if one repents.
The issue is why do some focus on THAT sin so much? why do some alienate and even drive people to suicide because of THAT one?
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by Jac3510 »

neo-x wrote:And that is precisely my point...you are shaming someone on something they have really no control of and over...how effective is that?
Extremely effective, as it turns out. How many people "came out" fifty years ago when it was a shameful thing? Hardly any. And now that it is being accepted as normal, people are, as expected, "coming out."

But more importantly, we are not shaming people for something they have no control over. We do not shame for a desire. A desire is an emotion. We shame them for their act of will in response to their emotion, and that is a very important distinction.
A child who is born gay, even if you leave him in a population of 1 million heterosexuals, that child is gonna come out gay and the vice versa is true for heterosexuals. Your straight child isn't gonna turn gay just because he is raised among gay people. Gay children come normally from houses of heterosexuals.
This has nothing to do with worrying about homosexuality being "contagious," and I've not even hinted at such an absurd concern. You seem to have an underlying utilitarian ethic here -- that things are only right or wrong, or things only ought to be endorsed or condemned, based on the effect they have on individuals. But utilitarianism has long been discredited. My point is that it is wrong on an absolutely objective level, homosexual behavior is wrong, and in that, society has both a right and obligation to supress that behavior.
And what if they are created by God this way? What if we find that yes sexual orientation takes place in wombs?
Whether or not people are born gay is irrelevant. The act is still disordered, and that because of human nature--the nature that God did create. We need to see homosexuality for what it is: a disorder. Something in these people are broken. It's something we should have compassion on them for, for sure. That's why I said we shame the behavior, and that is as much for the person's benefit as for society's.
How natural or unnatural is that? And how adequate is the natural law for this type of thing.
This is precisely where natural law is most adequate. You've misunderstood the idea. "Natural" has absolutely nothing to do with what a person or thing does in an untrained, uneducated state. It has to do with the nature of the thing itself. It is the nature of dogs to bark, of cats to meow. Part of human nature, as in all sexual beings, is procreation, and it is the nature of the procreative act to lead to procreation. To engage in the procreative act in that way is disordered. It is contrary to nature. You can be a stark raving atheist and see that. Evolution designed the male and female genitalia and related body parts in such a way that one is for the other, and they are for one another to the end of producing children. And the process doesn't stop there. The human nature is such that for the first several years of its life it is defenseless and requires training and education in order to survive. Part of that training and education has to do with relationships and bonding, and from a strinctly biological and psychological perspective, we see that his or her relationship with the mother is of extreme formative importance. But so to is that of the father. And so we are not surprised to see that human society would, by nature, produce an institition in which that child is cared for by the mother and in which the father provides extensive support, both emotionally and physically. That instition is called marriage. As such, the sexual union cannot be divorced from marriage. They go together, naturally. When we engage in the passions in a disorderly manner, we start breaking things, and that is precisely what we mean when we say something is wrong. And that is precisely why society has the right and responsibility to repress what is wrong.

There is simply NO defense for the basic order of homosexual behavior. It is disordered by any argument, and being disordered, society, by its nature, MUST repress the disorder. If it does not, the society has violated its own nature and done something wrong. It has become an unjust society, and unjust societies are not pleasant places to live.
Homosexuality is a sin, the bible clearly says it, I have no moral confusion in that regard. But the natural law view is inadequate to address this because it assumes that it is out of sinful lust that such unions take place. The problem is not "sodomy is not natural" since that doesn't happen in female-female unions, the problem is of same-sex being together in all and every way, families aren't shaped this way. And I agree with you that such union is unnatural, but I also contend that it is not anything to be shameful of by the society I can understand it being shameful in the church but outside of church its only odd...but why shameful?
It is shameful because it is disordered. Female-female relationships are just as shameful because they are just as unnatural. It's also silly for you to pick on sodomy in particular, because it was never claimed that sodomy is the sum total of the debate. Sodomy is a particular example of a universal type, the universal type being disordered acts.

In any case, you are morally confused. You apparently have equated religiosity with morality, such that because you recognize homosexuality is a sin (which is a religious point), you therefore are not morally confused (the moral point). But that's incorrect. Morality is not about religion and vice versa. We would certainly expect religion to deal with and enshrine moral truths in its systems of teaching; good religion does just that. But the moral point is the moral point whether we are thinking about religion, and the basis of morality is order and disorder. To say that something is disordered but not wrong is self-contradictory. Now that which is disordered is shameful, to say that something is disorderd but not shameful is moral confusion.

As I said to Mallz before, I am NOT talking about the Church. I am talking about society. That you continue to bring the Church into this demonstrates your moral confusion. And this, by the way, is important from an apologetics perspective. We argue, rightly by the way, that if objective morality exists then God exists and that because objective morality exists God therefore exists. But if morality is objective, then it has nothing to do with religious standards. This is one example, neo. Your riff earlier that we just "know" and that it is "self-evident" that gay people have the right to marry shows that you've failed to understand the nature of morality itself.
Outside of church our biblical values don't necessarily apply. Your definition of right or wrong is a biblical definition, its not democratic in nature, its theocratic...but outside the system is democratic or non-theocratic to be precise, that system has its entire own structure of assigning values.

Muslims do marriage, every other religious or non-religious groups do marriage, marriage is not exclusive to Christianity. We can regulate marriage inside the church but outside of it, that is a different problem.

Don't get me wrong Jac, I clearly see the problems the church face...I am not advocating that we allow gay marriage in church, but outside of church, I really don't see why not. And really don't see what we lose, and I do see what we gain, some trust, some confidence, may be some openness to the gospel, may be less hostility.
All of which has nothing to do with anything. I'm not talking about the Church. I'm taking about society--what a just, moral society looks like and how it operates. The society you are positing is unjust and immoral, and unjust, immoral societies are dangerous places to live. They are contrary to human nature because such societies prevent humanity in general and humans in particular from actualizing their God-given potential.
The real question, which in fact takes priority above all, is where do gays stand in the kingdom of God?...as a teacher, and outreach guy this is my supreme concern. At the end of the day, I want to save a gay teen, a gay lady, a gay guy, why not...and my question is what is their status in the church, are they saved brothers and sisters or are they people who are not welcome in the church but are saved nonetheless? Marriage is just a trivial matter in the bigger picture. The bigger picture is we alienate the gay community, or do we reach out to them?
Again, you need to drop the religious riff. It's a complete red herring. It's aslo terribly wrong to asy "marriage is just a trivial matter in the bigger picture." That's very wrong and demonstrates your moral confusion. You are saying order does not matter, which is identical to saying morality doesn't matter, and that is immoral.
My personal interaction has left me wondering a lot about this...gay and christian are at complete odds but should they have to be? And at what cost? At any forum, Christians have stereotype that leaves gay people quite scared for their own self respect. and yet somewhere I do believe that Gays if they believe in Christ, shall be saved, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Just some time ago, I held a gay teenager, crying over my shoulder because he was so willing to commit suicide that his family was pushing him to marry a girl and they would not accept him. What do I tell this guy? Stop being gay?...believe me I tried, didn't help. Stop having thoughts of sex? that hasn't helped either. Moreover he is a christian, I don't doubt he loves God. And my question is where does this boy stand? I can tell him that this is sin but I get blank stares in return, his obvious question was he can't be with a girl, that repels him and I can't blame him because I feel the same if I am to be asked to be gay.

And my concern is for asexual and transgender people too.
You empathize with him on having a powerful emotion. You tell him plainly that the emotion, though, is disordered. That does not make HIM a bad person. It makes him a broken person, like all the rest of us. You tell him that while he cannot deny what he feels--there is no need to lie about it, after all; emotions exist whether we like it or not, and often we don't--but that he must practice restaint and not act according to those emotions. That doesn't mean he has to marry a girl. Perhaps he just doesn't marry. There are worse things in life than celebacy. Paul extolled its virtues, after all. In all that, you don't question his salvation. If he has trusted Christ, he is saved. If he hasn't, it doesn't matter if he acts on his sexuality or not. He is not saved. You tell him that God loves him. You affirm his intrinsic worth.

You do not, cannot, must not, condone disordered acts. That is to condone sin. That is immoral, and you do the boy positive harm when you do that.

I would highly encourage you read a (very short) book titled Feeling and Healing Your Emotions by Conrad Baars. You can get it for about $7.50 on Kindle. You can read through all of it in about two good sittings. You have a lot of things mixed up, and while I don't doubt in the least your sincerity and even love for your family and for the LGBT community more generally, you are harming them; and not just them, you are very unintentionally harming society as a whole.
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by neo-x »

Yes I am saying that exactly.

Second behavior is hardwired. Do you behave gay rick, no? So they can't behave straight either.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by Proinsias »

Jac3510 wrote: It is contrary to nature. You can be a stark raving atheist and see that. Evolution designed the male and female genitalia and related body parts in such a way that one is for the other, and they are for one another to the end of producing children. And the process doesn't stop there. The human nature is such that for the first several years of its life it is defenseless and requires training and education in order to survive. Part of that training and education has to do with relationships and bonding, and from a strinctly biological and psychological perspective, we see that his or her relationship with the mother is of extreme formative importance. But so to is that of the father. And so we are not surprised to see that human society would, by nature, produce an institition in which that child is cared for by the mother and in which the father provides extensive support, both emotionally and physically. That instition is called marriage. As such, the sexual union cannot be divorced from marriage. They go together, naturally. When we engage in the passions in a disorderly manner, we start breaking things, and that is precisely what we mean when we say something is wrong. And that is precisely why society has the right and responsibility to repress what is wrong.

There is simply NO defense for the basic order of homosexual behavior. It is disordered by any argument, and being disordered, society, by its nature, MUST repress the disorder. If it does not, the society has violated its own nature and done something wrong. It has become an unjust society, and unjust societies are not pleasant places to live.
We have same sex marrige here in Scotland & it's rather pleasant living here. The natural law argument doesn't really hold much water beyond stating things you like or don't. Making claims about what marriage is does not make it so, it's a legal arrangement between two individuals where I live.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by RickD »

PaulS wrote:
Is it worse than adultery?
Actually, adultery is a good comparison. If someone came to you and said, "I've been having extramarital sexual affairs, and I just feel like I was born with a desire to have sex with any woman that I find attractive."

Would you tell him that's ok, because you were born that way, and you can't help it. Go cheat on your wife.

Of course you wouldn't say that. Why is homosexual sin any different?
Of course homosexuality is a forgivable sin, other than blasphemy of the HS, every sin is forgivable if one repents.
The issue is why do some focus on THAT sin so much? why do some alienate and even drive people to suicide because of THAT one?
People aren't driven to suicide because of alcohol use? Drug use? Depression? Being too fat? Being to thin? Being bullied? Etc.?

Look, of course we need to show compassion to people. We can't just pretend sin isn't sin. It does nobody any good.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by RickD »

RickD wrote:
Are you saying a man has no control over his desire to stick his penis in another man's anus?
neo-x wrote:Yes I am saying that exactly.

Second behavior is hardwired. Do you behave gay rick, no? So they can't behave straight either.
Neo,
I'm not talking about an attraction to someone of the same sex. I'm talking about the act itself. The act of homosexual "sex" is the sin. Just like the act of heterosexual adulterous sex is a sin.

If I made the argument to you, that as a man, I'm hard wired to have sex with as many women as I can, would you just tell me that's ok because I was born that way?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by Philip »

Somehow I do not picture Jesus doing anything BUT comforting a person, gay or otherwise, in their sin and their inability to overcome that sin.
Well, maybe some people's idea of a namby, pamby, politically correct Jesus might ONLY comfort. But I can guarantee you that the ACTUAL Jesus would also confront their sin and tell them to repent of it. Compassion includes enlightening or making known to one that their sin is harming them. Of course, this doesn't mean we should only focus on the sin. We need to love people and they need to know it - BEFORE we start addressing their sins.
Is homosexuality a greater sin than theft? than adultery ( one of the big ones), than THE original sin?
No, adultery isn't any less of a sin than homosexual acts. And others have mentioned that it's not the DESIRE to sin but the intent and the actual acts. Again, we are ALL born with a sin nature. We are ALL going to sin. But, as a married man, I see many beautiful women, sexily dressed that may tempt me with many impure thoughts. Are those - though heterosexually oriented - THOUGHTS and DESIRES any different than HOMOSEXUAL thoughts and desires? Is ACTING upon either orientation's thoughts and desires any less sinful than the other? NO! Does not the DESIRE for either orientation's (hetero or homo) sinful actions seem perfectly natural to both persons? Absolutely! Can we control ourselves to not ACT upon every wrongful thought and desire. Certainly! Although we may well struggle to not follow temptation with ACTIONS. And without constantly relying upon the Lord, we will have very little long-term success at avoiding temptations.

But what do many gay (and adulterous) people do? They 1) conclude that they were BORN to their sexual orientation and that they cannot change or resist it; 2) They typically don't take this issue to the Lord for help and personal understanding - in fact, most deny that their homosexual (also, with adulterous heterosexuals) acts are sinful or that they should submit themselves to the Lord's commands; They don't want to stop their homosexual or adulterous activities. And so while they could depend upon the Lord to change them - or to help them to not act upon their thoughts (perhaps, by simply staying celibate, perhaps by re-orienting) - they instead embrace and revel in their sinful activities, with no desire or intention to change, and lying to themselves that they "can't not be and do what they were born to."
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by Philip »

And many ignore or are ignorant of what God tells us in Romans 1:21 about unbelievers and sexual sin - and why they were given over to it:

"For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

(And WHY?)

25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

I see this passage as revealing what we cannot see in other people - we can't see their hearts and minds like God can. They know God exists, but they refuse to honor Him with even what basic things about Him they already DO know. And THEY reject Him. So God allows them to be taken over by their passions - which are entirely natural and consistent with having a sin nature.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by PaulSacramento »

RickD wrote:
PaulS wrote:
Is it worse than adultery?
Actually, adultery is a good comparison. If someone came to you and said, "I've been having extramarital sexual affairs, and I just feel like I was born with a desire to have sex with any woman that I find attractive."

Would you tell him that's ok, because you were born that way, and you can't help it. Go cheat on your wife.

Of course you wouldn't say that. Why is homosexual sin any different?
Of course homosexuality is a forgivable sin, other than blasphemy of the HS, every sin is forgivable if one repents.
The issue is why do some focus on THAT sin so much? why do some alienate and even drive people to suicide because of THAT one?
People aren't driven to suicide because of alcohol use? Drug use? Depression? Being too fat? Being to thin? Being bullied? Etc.?

Look, of course we need to show compassion to people. We can't just pretend sin isn't sin. It does nobody any good.
It think it was made clear that NO ONE is suggesting we pretend it is NOT a sin, even if a person is born that way.
What I am saying is that we seem to make this sin more than it really is, somehow, for some, it is one of the worse possible sins.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by PaulSacramento »

Adultery is a far greater sin than homosexuality (IMO), it is one of the "Big 10", one of the first "thou shall not..." and yet, I don't recall ANYONE ever being lynched and beating for adultery, do you guys?

Look, to be very clear: NO ONE is stating that homosexuality is OK or that it is NOT a sin, IT IS A SON and it is NOT OK.
Even if we find that some people are born that way, it does NOT make it less of a sin.
Period.

What I am pointing out is that there may be far greater sins that FAR MORE do that seem to be "ignored" by those very vocal anti-gay people.

We also need to remember that Paul's admonishment was far greater then the typical case of homosexuality because it also was directed ( more so) at the pagan religious sexual establishment he was confronting in the Hellenistic world.

I think that we ALL agree that homosexuality is a sin, BUT the issue at hand seems to be two fold:
Why do some treat it as a far bigger sin that many others that seem to be worse.
How do we treat/deal with those that are homosexual and struggling with it.
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by RickD »

PaulS wrote:
Adultery is a far greater sin than homosexuality (IMO), it is one of the "Big 10", one of the first "thou shall not..." and yet, I don't recall ANYONE ever being lynched and beating for adultery, do you guys?
No, nobody has ever been beaten or shot for sleeping with someone else's wife. Never. :shock:
I think that we ALL agree that homosexuality is a sin, BUT the issue at hand seems to be two fold:
Why do some treat it as a far bigger sin that many others that seem to be worse.
Probably the same reason that people try to make their sin seem like less of a sin, by making others seem worse.
How do we treat/deal with those that are homosexual and struggling with it.
The same way we deal with anyone struggling with sin.
Look, to be very clear: NO ONE is stating that homosexuality is OK or that it is NOT a sin, IT IS A SON and it is NOT OK.
Even if we find that some people are born that way, it does NOT make it less of a sin.
No one is stating that homosexuality is not a sin? Really? So, those who are trying to force us to accept homosexual "marriage" as normal, think it's a sin?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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neo-x
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by neo-x »

You should read my posts carefully rick before you jump to conclusions.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com
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RickD
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Re: All Men Are Created Equal

Post by RickD »

neo-x wrote:You should read my posts carefully rick before you jump to conclusions.
I wasn't referring to you Neo, when I said:
No one is stating that homosexuality is not a sin? Really? So, those who are trying to force us to accept homosexual "marriage" as normal, think it's a sin?

If that's what you are talking about.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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