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Re: How God Creates
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:31 am
by Mazzy
Starhunter wrote:Some people have been conditioned to feel that freedom and independence means chaos and arrogance, consequently they cannot visualize matter existing by those principles. They feel that there are no boundaries, because somehow control is all they know.
Some even claim that God controls everything in the way the police try to control crime, once again they cannot see a safe universe without such control.
Is God a control freak? No.
Then how does the universe show such precision and order? Forget a moment the interpretation of others - that the universe began in violence and ends in violence.
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The above says nothing at all on the thread topic you started. The precision and order of the universe is testimony to a designer/God and that still does not inform "HOW GOD CREATES"
You said, "Matter is created through the principles of freedom and independence", This also says nothing about the thread topic.
You have a lot to say Starhunter but none of it so far addresses the thread topic. That's OK, it is a very deep subject. I suggest that although science is in its fledgling state and often claims are falsified and reasserted, we do have evidence that a great source of energy can create matter instantly. This is actually observed science and factual information, unlike much that is offered to the world.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:28 pm
by Mazzy
Starhunter, you said this
"The modern world has no idea of these Biblical concepts as did the ancients
Creation is subject to higher powers, with graduations from the higher powers to the lower
Matter is created through the principles of freedom and independence and yet it is fully sustained by the Word, both for existing and operating
PS If you are studying from versions of the Bible other than the Authorized version or the (old) King James, you will not pick up what it says about these mysteries, because they have been deleted or mistranslated to suit the modern man."
All of us here, including me, are modern man. We do not all use the old KJ version of the bible. That does not mean none of us have any idea what we are talking about and that you do. You continue to insult us and I don't even think you are aware that you are doing so.
It is due to this sort of pompous self righteous gibberish that I take a hard line on you.You seriously need to stop inclining your posts to suggest that if one does not agree with you or even use the same bible then we are somehow lacking in ability and must not have a valued opinion or sound scriptural knowledge.
Now I will apologize to you because as a Christian I am supposed to be all warm and fuzzy all the time no matter how you insult me. Having said that, even Jesus threw a tanty in the temple.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:31 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Mazzy wrote:Starhunter, you said this
"The modern world has no idea of these Biblical concepts as did the ancients
Creation is subject to higher powers, with graduations from the higher powers to the lower
Matter is created through the principles of freedom and independence and yet it is fully sustained by the Word, both for existing and operating
PS If you are studying from versions of the Bible other than the Authorized version or the (old) King James, you will not pick up what it says about these mysteries, because they have been deleted or mistranslated to suit the modern man."
All of us here, including me, are modern man. We do not all use the old KJ version of the bible. That does not mean none of us have any idea what we are talking about and that you do. You continue to insult us and I don't even think you are aware that you are doing so.
It is due to this sort of pompous self righteous gibberish that I take a hard line on you.You seriously need to stop inclining your posts to suggest that if one does not agree with you or even use the same bible then we are somehow lacking in ability and must not have a valued opinion or sound scriptural knowledge.
Now I will apologize to you because as a Christian I am supposed to be all warm and fuzzy all the time no matter how you insult me. Having said that, even Jesus threw a tanty in the temple.
We all know that when John wrote "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God" he really meant "In the beginning was the KJV Bible and the KJV Bible was with God and the KJV Bible was God".
Legalism, Idol worship and self righteousness all wrapped up in one neat little package.
I am not trying to be offensive Starhunter, but a lot of the things you have been saying on this thread and others have some serious implications that you really should be thinking about, I apologise if you have taken offence.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:23 pm
by Mallz
Some people have been conditioned to feel that freedom and independence means chaos and arrogance, consequently they cannot visualize matter existing by those principles. They feel that there are no boundaries, because somehow control is all they know.
Some even claim that God controls everything in the way the police try to control crime, once again they cannot see a safe universe without such control.
Is God a control freak? No.
Then how does the universe show such precision and order? Forget a moment the interpretation of others - that the universe began in violence and ends in violence.
The order in nature comes from the fact that God has given every facet of it a spectrum of possible behavior which goes beyond the thing's capacity to utilize. A vault of freedom.
And He has made each thing, whether animate or inanimate, with the option of working in the path of least resistance and/ or the most attraction. hence we find limited behaviors of atoms etc, which are in fact preferences in behavior.
This does not mean that atoms think and choose, that is simply the way that God made them.
There are an infinite number of ways of attraction that God has ordained, all of which can be traced back to the living Word of God, the most attractive thing for nature to respond to.
So nature is happy you might say to respond to the presence of God, and that is how it obeys His will in perfection.
Except of course with men, and the sum effects of their rebellion.
This is describing actuality and potentiality in Aquinas' metaphysics and natural law.
It appears to me SH is reconciling the relationship of the metaphysical world to our natural world.
Mazzy seems to be going about this naturally using empirical science.
However, very simplistically put, you have only told us creation exists by the Word of God following Aquinas' metaphysical principles.
I'd be more interested to hear the function of metaphysical to natural in creation, which I believe is what Mazzy is wanting. Which I believe you've said is Light, The Word of God, Jesus.
So... How does God Create? Yes, through Jesus governed by His essence. However, do you have knowledge of how this transpires, from metaphysical to natural?
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:48 pm
by neo-x
To be honest guys, no one knows how exactly does God create anything. In the case of star hunter, cherry picking verses and trying to find meaning out of it using abstract imagination does not lead one anywhere.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:39 am
by Starhunter
Mazzy wrote:Starhunter, you said this
"The mo....hink you are aware that you are doing so.
It is due to this sort of pompous self righteous gibberish that I take a hard line on you.You seriously need to stop inclining your posts to suggest that if one does not agree with you or even use the same bible then we are somehow lacking in ability and must not have a valued opinion or sound scriptural knowledge.
Now I will apologize to you because as a Christian I am supposed to be all warm and fuzzy all the time no matter how you insult me. Having said that, even Jesus threw a tanty in the temple.
Sorry, I did not realize I was offending you. I'll do my best to change the way I present things. Thanks!
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:58 am
by Starhunter
To Mallz, Mazz and Neo,
Creation can be appreciated, but never really understood, except by faith in the same sense that a child can enjoy the world without knowing it all. As Adults we are still in the same position, so I can never claim to know or understand How God Creates, except by faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word. The Bible provides the "metaphysical approach" if you like, except it is not vain philosophy, as far as I believe.
All I have been attempting to do, is to present what those metaphysics are. The character of God is an actuality which impacts whatever He does in the truest sense, so nature should, if understood by this, reveal more accurate truth about it self.
Freedom and independence for example, are not notions, but actualities. you cannot have movement without freedom for it.
On a physical level we might like to associate that with space and time, making allowances for matter to operate in the way it does.
So although, love for many might be just a word we made up for teddies, it contains every good principle of creation.
The laws that follow this Love or God, describe sharing conditions, etc
All these laws are apparent in nature, even though at the moment in this imperfect world, there is also competition, desperation, disease and death, which God never made in the first place etc.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:16 am
by neo-x
Starhunter wrote:To Mallz, Mazz and Neo,
Creation can be appreciated, but never really understood, except by faith in the same sense that a child can enjoy the world without knowing it all. As Adults we are still in the same position, so I can never claim to know or understand How God Creates, except by faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word. The Bible provides the "metaphysical approach" if you like, except it is not vain philosophy, as far as I believe.
All I have been attempting to do, is to present what those metaphysics are. The character of God is an actuality which impacts whatever He does in the truest sense, so nature should, if understood by this, reveal more accurate truth about it self.
Freedom and independence for example, are not notions, but actualities. you cannot have movement without freedom for it.
On a physical level we might like to associate that with space and time, making allowances for matter to operate in the way it does.
So although, love for many might be just a word we made up for teddies, it contains every good principle of creation.
The laws that follow this Love or God, describe sharing conditions, etc
All these laws are apparent in nature, even though at the moment in this imperfect world, there is also competition, desperation, disease and death, which God never made in the first place etc.
Meta physics need not be so abstract that we can connect vague terms like freedom with space.
Many of us wrongly imagine the singularity as a bleak dot in a vacuum of space which just exploded and our universe came forth. There was no space, nor time, and the singularity was not hanging in a vacuum or space or time. There was nothing around it and it wasn't in the center of anything. When it exploded it didn't fill any empty space, there was no empty space, the only space it filled was the very one it created. That is how mind boggling the BB is. That is why we know time and space were birthed right after the singularity exploded (and exploded doesn't mean explosion as to how we see it) imagine it, at one point it was a dot and then in a billionth fraction of a second it stretched to hundreds of billions of light years around. Open, closed, flat, take your pick but that is how it happened, we know this because of the BG radiation, inflation, waves etc and tons of other things.
Its really funny, our planet is the only planet we know of yet which has life and I sometimes hear the fine tuning argument on this. And I also realize that what proponents of such argument do not focus on, is that our planet is more efficient at ending life than birthing it. 99.99 percent of all life forms which exists have gone extinct. Consider that ratio, life giving and life ending. To say God did not design death is to say that God made everything else God. We know that even our universe would one day either collapse, go dormant or stretch so much that gravitational force would go bleak.
We really don't need to employ a metaphysical approach when a less drastic one is present, more transparent and likely more true.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:28 am
by Starhunter
Its a dark picture, often reiterated by science, and I agree that it describes what is.
Do you think that this world is the only way it can be, and do you see promise of a new world in some of the amazing beauty in nature?
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:32 am
by neo-x
Starhunter wrote:Its a dark picture, often reiterated by science, and I agree that it describes what is.
Do you think that this world is the only way it can be, and do you see promise of a new world in some of the amazing beauty in nature?
Please be more specific?
1.The world is the only way it is. There is no need for any hypothetical at all.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:34 am
by Starhunter
Well, from what i have read in the Bible, God is going to restore earth into a paradise. Surely you've heard about it?
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:40 am
by neo-x
Starhunter wrote:Well, from what i have read in the Bible, God is going to restore earth into a paradise. Surely you've heard about it?
I have...but I am not so positive as to what would heaven do if we are all to be here...like forever?
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:57 am
by Mallz
We really don't need to employ a metaphysical approach when a less drastic one is present, more transparent and likely more true.
\
I get what you're saying, but I still prefer the metaphysical approach first. I like to have the fundamental knowledge. Science is used to explore what occurs from the fundamental through it's own resources at a level above metaphysics. From what I've seen, is that solid metaphysical reasoning lasts millenia to forever, while science can only grasp what is unfolded to it, and is rarely 'solid'. So if the metaphysical is in contrast with the science, the metaphysical is to be believed. And the science shown to be flawed, as it is in it's nature, a sprout from our focus on the natural world, nonwholey inclusive of truth.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:40 am
by neo-x
Mallz wrote:We really don't need to employ a metaphysical approach when a less drastic one is present, more transparent and likely more true.
\
I get what you're saying, but I still prefer the metaphysical approach first. I like to have the fundamental knowledge. Science is used to explore what occurs from the fundamental through it's own resources at a level above metaphysics. From what I've seen, is that solid metaphysical reasoning lasts millenia to forever, while science can only grasp what is unfolded to it, and is rarely 'solid'. So if the metaphysical is in contrast with the science, the metaphysical is to be believed. And the science shown to be flawed, as it is in it's nature, a sprout from our focus on the natural world, nonwholey inclusive of truth.
I am not saying metaphysics is reduntant, sure in matters dealing with philosophy, even logic, we can go around meta physics but the one thing we should not do, is philosophize science. That is not the aim of meta physics at all.
If a supernova happened just 500 lights years away from us, and that is a lot of distance, we'd be obliterated. Supernovas are that huge. And that is something meta physics can neither tell you nor help you with. And in these kind of matters, deferring to meta physics is the wrong thing to do. Metaphysical reasoning has nothing to do here.
And so is the same when we talk about space and time, they are not metaphysical entities. We know they exist and can be mapped and measured. Space-time exits and our universe and the bodies there in follow those paths.
Let me show you an another example. Recently in a few threads, I can't remember the exact ones. Someone, again not sure who, was talking about our central position in the universe. Now this is an assumption with a meta physical connotation with it. That it vaguely presumes that we are the center of creation.
What most people do not realize is that our solar system alone,
forget the Milkyway and the universe for now, is so vast that we don't even know where and what exactly lies at its edge. We don't know that. Its all good on paper. In reality if you are in space, the planets in our solar system are not in the same proportion of distance as we even see them in paper in 9 neat little orbits circulating the sun. It is just there because there is no other way to show it. The concept of centralized symmetry is only an illusion on paper, in reality the planets are so far off that if we shrunk our earth to the size of an actual pea and stuck it on a sheet of paper, Jupiter alone would be 1000 feet away from us, meaning you need a paper sheet 1000 feet long just to pinpoint Jupiter in our solar system. And pluto would be 1.5 miles down the road. Not to mention that to pin our nearest star Proxima Centauri on paper, you would need to unfold a sheet of pages ten thousand miles long on the surface of earth just to get the distance from your pea sized earth to our nearest star. That is how vast, enormous and uneven it is.
And then to think we are the center is just a blatant self congratulatory view. We really don't know where we are in space because we don't know how far space extends. This is putting metaphysics to something it does not address.
Re: How God Creates
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:52 am
by Starhunter
You've done some pretty heavy weights, Neo, with thought experiments about eternity, space and distribution of matter, etc
For a person to say that they can't live with "eternity" shows they have actually thought about it... and I have had a similar response to the exercise.
To be able to cope with eternity would require a drastic change in levels of power, and mind capabilities. Eternal life implies an endless repetition of whatever, which after a while would send you nuts.