Evidence for God from Science

JustDucky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:42 pm

SoCalExile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:46 am

B. W. wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
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So...we must do something other than trust Christ's substitutionary atonement then?

No, those who trust will obey! We can't say we trust God and then not obey him, the two are inseparable.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

Blessings,
Lee

Welcome to the forums Lee - JustDucky...

You might have opened a can of worms here because some define obey 'only in pure legalistic sense', others say, 'all grace, okay not to obey as that is legalism,' and, others, like myself, say, 'we obey out of heartfelt love for God because he first loved us.'

So let the games begin!
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Um, does anyone know of ANY Christian who always obeys God - who NEVER sins? Saved on a Monday, stays pretty obedient from Tuesday - Thursday, but hit's Friday sinning before breakfast. Does that disobedience mean that Friday onward, the man needs re-saving? How could the Apostle Paul be certain of what he declared to his believing audience in Philippians 1:6? If a person enters into eternal life upon being saved - how long, exactly, would you say ETERNAL life is?

B. W. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:06 am

JustDucky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:42 pm

SoCalExile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:46 am

B. W. wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
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So...we must do something other than trust Christ's substitutionary atonement then?

No, those who trust will obey! We can't say we trust God and then not obey him, the two are inseparable.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

Blessings,
Lee

Welcome to the forums Lee - JustDucky...

You might have opened a can of worms here because some define obey 'only in pure legalistic sense', others say, 'all grace, okay not to obey as that is legalism,' and, others, like myself, say, 'we obey out of heartfelt love for God because he first loved us.'

So let the games begin!
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And others might say that it is our duty to obey, but it's our duty as a disciple, as one who is assured of salvation by God's grace through faith in Christ. Some may not be able to understand that our duty to obey, to love God and our neighbor, has nothing to do with salvation. Faith in Christ comes first, and if we live by faith in the spirit, we will love God and others(obey) as we grow as a believer.

Some might also say that we see obey in a legalistic sense, only when others say obeying is a requirement for salvation, not only a requirement for a disciple(again, one who is already saved) to live as we should. Obeying also becomes legalism in a sense, when one uses some level of a person obeying the law, as a sign that one is saved.

As this thread is "Quick answers about Bible" please start a new thread on the topic of obeying.
Thank you.

1over137 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:46 pm As this thread is "Quick answers about Bible" please start a new thread on the topic of obeying.
Thank you.

Feel free to split the thread if you wish, Hana.

Hymn:

Trust and Obey
John H. Sammis, 1887


When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.

Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet,
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way;
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

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JustDucky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:42 pm

SoCalExile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:46 am

B. W. wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
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So...we must do something other than trust Christ's substitutionary atonement then?

No, those who trust will obey! We can't say we trust God and then not obey him, the two are inseparable.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

Blessings,
Lee

So if you trust Donald Trump will be a good president, does that mean you will obey his command to vote for him? If you don't, how does that affect your faith in him? I don't see that it does.

If you love your wife, does that mean you will always obey her or else you don't really love her? I think you can see how this goes downhill pretty quick.

I guess Peter didn't love Jesus, and David didn't love God either because he disobeyed Him?

Also, Romans 5:19 says that "by the obedience of One, many shall be saved."



BTW Matthew 7:21 is in the context of false teachers. Read the next verse:
7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?

So they thought they were doing God's will, and by doing so, were g2g with God. But:

7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice iniquity!'"

They didn't have the only righteousness that matters: Christ's, which is gained by faith. Their faith was in their works, not in the mercy of God. Just like the Pharisee of Luk 18:9-14:

18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
18:10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector."
18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector."
18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'"
18:13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'"
18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; because, everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

But many in the modern church would say that Jesus had it backwards.

Here is a great article about the role that obedience plays in a believer's life.

There is the naive belief apparent in Sammis' song that a faithful Christian is blessed with good things, won't endure hardship and suffering.

I also wonder what is it one is obeying acording to this Sammis man? And then, what is it one is truly trusting in? Wouldn't mind seeing such unpacked.

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:23 pm There is the naive belief apparent in Sammis' song that a faithful Christian is blessed with good things, won't endure hardship and suffering.

I also wonder what is it one is obeying acording to this Sammis man? And then, what is it one is truly trusting in? Wouldn't mind seeing such unpacked.

It does seem to me, at least on the surface, that he's saying if we trust and obey(whatever that means) we will have no burdens, sorrow, or grief.

When we take that further, would that imply that if we do have burdens, sorrow, or grief, then we aren't "trusting and obeying" enough?

I know we'd see eye-to-eye Rick. There is one way in which "obedience" could be read, that may be legitimate. But, then, the song is so riddled with what I'd consider unhealthy Christian lies that I feel it's a lost cause.

As for a legitimate form of obedience. While I don't want to conjure up erroneous Lordship Salvation doctrine, Jesus is nonetheless our Lord. Sadly, our obedience is always unscored by our unfaithfulness and straying because we are weak. Such doesn't mean we forsake trying.

The first major premise of the Gospel requires an understanding of our fallen and sinful nature, such that Isaiah says even our good works are like filthy rags to God who is so pure, holy and righteous. And our sin is continuous, and though we might desire and want to be better, the Apostle Paul says we'll struggle with such until we die and are raised up. And, indeed I do and I'd say any Christian who says they don't is a liar.

The message from Christ is that God loved Israel, and by extension the rest of humanity, despite our betrayals. God doesn't want retribution, doesn't want to judge us and punish us, but loves us and wishes to be with us. To do this, God needs to resolve an issue with His nature. The issue God needs to resolve is between His Righteousness and His Love so that we can remain with Him. However this dilemma be dealt with -- and Christianity is the only religion that attempts to bring together both righteous judgement on one side versus love and compassion on the other -- the Christian message is that reconciliation is made possible in Christ, who is Immanuel (God with us). God took upon Himself human nature to conquer sin where no other human could. Therefore, Christ became a new head of humanity for those who acknowledge Him, unlike the older headship under Adam who sinned and in whom all will perish. Christ as the head of the new humanity was put to death suffering the wages of sin, yet was righteously justified when raised from the dead. Sin and death could not hold him, and His resurrection was Christ's vindication. So now all who fall under Christ, Christ promises that while they will die, that He has the power to also raise them up with Him. That is the message I understand and hope in, and it is so important to protect it against erroneous works-based guilting drivel which often finds its way into Christian circles -- because otherwise there is no good news for anyone.

So then, while it may not be for lack of trying on our part to be pleasing -- pleasing to God is something we do not, cannot do. Nonetheless, we can give our allegiance to Christ and express He is Lord of our lives despite our failings. And to those who trust in Him, Christ has promised to remember us in the end when we're before God. He is just and the justifier of those who believe in Him. Christ IS NOT the justifier of those who believe and obey, for if that were the case, then what Christ did was pointless as noone will be saved.

Does Matthew 7:13,14 mean most people will go to hell?

UsagiTsukino wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:28 am Does Matthew 7:13,14 mean most people will go to hell?

Yes. But thanks be to God, for providing for us, a way for everlasting life, through faith in Christ.

Oh. I was reading the verse and I thought it applied to everyone after Jesus died. Since I work I can't always see my pastor. So I sometimes use bible study sites. Now I always pray and not believe everything I read until God answers.


https://www.gotquestions.org/more-peopl ... -hell.html

Don't you all know that the moment we got saved we just became patients and the Great Physician Jesus became our Doctor? When we get sick,etc not only physically but spiritually also we go to him for healing.
Patients. For you all.
https://youtu.be/SE9sPvam02w