Was Adam perfect?

[stuartcr]

Not at all

[Starhunter]

Not at all

Then I don't think you are serious about pre-determinism, because that theory is entertained by adolescent minds.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Not at all

Then I don't think you are serious about pre-determinism, because that theory is entertained by adolescent minds.

Ouch! You sound like me...

FL

[melanie]

We seem to have two threads running about the exact same thing, I will continue here as this is where I have been discussing.
I think it is great you put so much trust in The Lord, trusting and believing that every move you make The Almighty is there, but He is not making pre-determined decisions for you that you just follow through with as a puppet, He is guiding you, absolutely.
Recently I had a situation where a person I cared about did wrong by me and hurt me deeply, at the time I decided to let it go, distance myself and if I confronted them, I would wait till my hurt was not so raw, as I could see the potential for me saying things that perhaps would benefit no-one. One day I was running some errands and was on that side of town so I decided to go to the mall and buy my daughter a new pair of ballet shoes, as I was driving there the HS spoke to me and told me not to go, that I would see this person and I should go back home and the shoes were not urgent, I could get them another day. I pulled my car over on the side of the road, a little perplexed, I wasn't sure what to do. Now I was sure that this was coming from My Father, but I also thought there was no reason I would see this person, it was a busy mall with hundreds of people frequenting there on a daily basis, that it was not even the closet mall to where they lived. I sat there for a little while then decided to go anyway, the truth is there was a part of me, that wanted to see them, that wanted them held accountable. So I went and when I walked through the food court, I saw him sitting there eating lunch. Again that strong voice spoke to my spirit telling me to walk away, but I didn't listen. I walked over to him and told him what I thought of his actions, I didn't raise my voice or swear, but I told him in no uncertain terms that he was untrustworthy, a liar and a troublemaker, he tried to lie, but it didn't work, the truth is very transparent. My friend who I told later consoled me and told me to not worry about it, he had it coming, but the thing is I did the wrong thing. He wasn't alone, he was having lunch with another person, who I am pretty sure was a work colleague, as I was leaving I apologized to the other person sitting there and said I was sorry for interrupting their lunch, and he replied ''no don't be, I'm sorry you were in a position to have to do so'', I caught a glimpse of the way this man looked at my former friend and it was in an accusing manner. I should never have approached this person as they were eating lunch in a public place, I should never have said what I did when there was someone else present, it should have been done privately and I should not have had a part of me that liked the look I saw on the other man's face that made him question his character, sure I exposed him, but I exposed some pretty awful things about myself as well.
God knew that I would see this man on that day because, Yes, He knows everything, and because He knows me so well He knew what I would do and He tried to offer me another path, a different choice I could make that was better for everyone and more pleasing to Him. Now my Father didn't have to do that, I made the choice to go anyway, Him speaking to me, my pulling over the car in the end had no impact on the outcome, but He offered me a way out, a different path, that situation was not set in stone and predetermined, I had an opportunity to with His love and wisdom determine which path I would take, I just chose the wrong one. Free will is what God gives us out of love, to have walked into that situation with no way out, no other path to take as it was pre-determined is not His plan for us, God gives us choices, gives us free will but also guides us because he loves us.

[PaulSacramento]

It wouldn't be what we consider a circle, would it? That can easily be proven. What cannot be proven, is whether we have free will or not. That is what we are talking about, not geometric shapes that exist in nature. You just can't use our logic to explain some things. What are miracles? Is it logical that a pile of inert dust can become a man?

Free will can be proven, the simple fact that you exercise CHOICE is evidence of that.
YOUR view is that ALL we do has been preordained by God and there is no evidence of that.

[stuartcr]

Then I don't think you are serious about pre-determinism, because that theory is entertained by adolescent minds.

That's not much of an answer. I would expect that from Free republic, but, being new here, I didn't realize some here are the same. Thanks

[stuartcr]

It wouldn't be what we consider a circle, would it? That can easily be proven. What cannot be proven, is whether we have free will or not. That is what we are talking about, not geometric shapes that exist in nature. You just can't use our logic to explain some things. What are miracles? Is it logical that a pile of inert dust can become a man?

Free will can be proven, the simple fact that you exercise CHOICE is evidence of that.
YOUR view is that ALL we do has been preordained by God and there is no evidence of that.

How can you prove that you could have made a different choice?

[PaulSacramento]

It wouldn't be what we consider a circle, would it? That can easily be proven. What cannot be proven, is whether we have free will or not. That is what we are talking about, not geometric shapes that exist in nature. You just can't use our logic to explain some things. What are miracles? Is it logical that a pile of inert dust can become a man?

Free will can be proven, the simple fact that you exercise CHOICE is evidence of that.
YOUR view is that ALL we do has been preordained by God and there is no evidence of that.

How can you prove that you could have made a different choice?

That there was a different choice means there was choice.

[stuartcr]

Sure there was the appearance of a choice, and I'm sure you believe you could have chosen differently, but I do not believe that another choice truly existed. You did what God knew you would do...you could not have done differently because God cannot be wrong.

[PaulSacramento]

Sure there was the appearance of a choice, and I'm sure you believe you could have chosen differently, but I do not believe that another choice truly existed. You did what God knew you would do...you could not have done differently because God cannot be wrong.

That is not the point or the issue, God knowing what you will do does NOT = you have no choice, we went over that already.
What you are suggesting is God knew because He ordained it to be so, in short FORCED you to do it.
That is NOT biblical.

[stuartcr]

Yes we went over it. Saying something is or isn't biblical, is only convincing to those that believe the same as you do.

[PaulSacramento]

Yes we went over it. Saying something is or isn't biblical, is only convincing to those that believe the same as you do.

I thought we were speaking of biblical theology (Adam) and doctrine ( Omniscience)?
How are you gonna come to a conclusion on those biblical things without the bible?

[stuartcr]

Sorry I didn't inform you in the beginning.

These discussions do not have conclusions because different people use different references...and no one can prove or disprove any of it without using the same reference.

[1over137]

Stuart, what is your definition of free will?

[stuartcr]

Basically not predestination