Israel vs. Hamas and Dubious, Naive Viewpoints

[neo-x]

You must be living in Shangri-la...there is no such thing as a war that spares civilians! As an American General (whose name I forget) said, ''War is hell.'' War is hell for all involved and that hell is what makes normal & sane people want to avoid it. The population of Gaza knowingly elected a terrorist entity that refuses to recognize the existence of the Jewish state, and they are now suffering the consequences of their choice. Of course, they can't remove their government but they should have known that beforehand. Had they elected Fatah - the party of theives and hypocrites that govern the ''West Bank'', at least they would have the possibility of living under better conditions.

People like Ban Ki-moon, John Kerry and others who push for repeated ceasefires are actually exacerbating the situation. When a hostile entity threatens a peaceful nation, that entity must be destroyed. When Osama bin Laden and his group attacked the USA, they were hunted down. When the Muslim Brotherhood took over Egypt, they were eliminated. When Carthage attacked Rome, it was flattened. Such is the way things must be: a cancer is excised from a body, it is not negotiated with.

I was in New York City a while ago and I kept seeing a remarkable sight: Muslim men in djellabas would rush to a clear place on the sidewalk, spread out a little prayer mat, crouch down and say their prayers. In public! in full view of the throngs of people walking by! I don't doubt their sincerity but you and I both know that God doesn't listen to these poor guys. Now, I don't doubt your sincerity insofar as civilian deaths are concerned, but I know that you are unable to identify the responsible party of the present conflict, and that you are naïve in your understanding of the hell that is war.

One side uses civs because they like to and the other kills them because they have to. And presumably the latter is right. Well whats the difference? both of them have innocent blood on their hands.

Fl, you know I used to say what you and some others are saying here. I was quite firm actually but the day my country started getting droned and innocent people started dying, old, young, women, children, my eyes opened and I have a hunch that the day your people started dying because of some other country bombing you, your eyes would open to.

I am sorry that we disagree on this but I have my own experience of it, you think its incomplete, naive or plain silly but its my experience. May be yours is different but then again you don't live in a country which gets droned, mortared or bombed. Your experience is different.

What Israel is doing in Palestine, it can do in Iran and Pakistan too, probably will someday. But do you live in Gaza, Iran or Pakistan? It could be my family someday who could die in a "holy self defense" strike.

So while I am sure your logic is sincere, my friend, you fortunately have nothing to fear. My existence and my circumstances are different and it has made me think and consider things deeply so don't mind me if I fear such brutality...and its justifications from those who really have no danger of losing anything.

I really think now that you guys say what you say because you have not experienced it. I can't change your pov. I only hope you understand that nothing justifies the loss of innocent blood.

As long as civilians die, as long as children are murdered, I can't say either side is right and I don't have to. They are people fighting over land and dust. They hate each other.

[neo-x]

Actually your claims are not only unjust, they are also un-biblical. According to the Bible, G-d has not rejected the Jewish people.

Great way to derail the whole thing.

[Lonewolf]

Actually your claims are not only unjust, they are also un-biblical. According to the Bible, G-d has not rejected the Jewish people.

Great way to derail the whole thing.

right

[RickD]

Lonewolf wrote:
For those of you who continue to close your eyes at what Israel practices in terms of "targetting civilians," listed below are just a few quotes over the years in regards to Israel's Final solution concerning the Palestinian people., the quotes are all from Israeli Prime Ministers, and if all those Prime Ministers have acted on such speech, what more can you expect from all those who put them in office?

FINAL SOLUTION?!?!?!?!?

The Final Solution was the Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews.

You're equating what's going on now in Israel, with nazis exterminating Jews?

You'd better be careful.

Why do I need to be careful? They may not be on the scale of the Nazi's, but they are practictioners of their own stated policies, right!?

You need to be careful because at best, you are unfairly comparing what Israel is doing, to the nazi goal of exterminating an entire ethnic group of people. And at worst, it's an antisemitic jab at Israel.

Unless you have proof that Israel's goal is to annihilate Palestinians, then your subtle jab is completely inappropriate.

[neo-x]

Rick, I wouldn't call them or compare them to the Nazi's but I think I gave you ample proof that they have targeted civilians, though you did not reply so I assume you have yet to read the links I posted. Let me know if you have any comments regarding that.

[RickD]

Rick, I wouldn't call them or compare them to the Nazi's but I think I gave you ample proof that they have targeted civilians, though you did not reply so I assume you have yet to read the links I posted. Let me know if you have any comments regarding that.

I will when I get a chance.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

One side uses civs because they like to and the other kills them because they have to. And presumably the latter is right. Well whats the difference? both of them have innocent blood on their hands.

No. I quoted General Sherman who said, ''War is Hell''. And I said that civilian casualties are a normal result of war. Hamas and the population that elected them are wholly to blame for the present war.

On the palwatch website - which you seem to ignore - I saw something remarkable: a talkshow host asked a girl who appeared to be 5 years old, ''How many Jews did your mommy kill?'' the little girl held up her hand with 4 fingers extended. The interviewer exclaimed, ''Praise Allah!'' and the little girl beamed a big smile. Another show, another child: a boy of about 8 is asked, ''What do you want to do when you become a man?'' The boy answered, ''A martyr.'' What kind of sick society produces such children? Do you really think Israel is to blame for creating this hate?

As for drone strikes in Pakistan and you living in fear, these have nothing to do with the present conflict. Your empathy with the people of Gaza is muddying the waters...but I understand you. I used to work with prisonners: murderers, serial murderers and narcotics traffickers. I got to know many of these men and even enjoyed their company. But I always knew that these guys were responsible for their own incarceration. The police who arrested them were innocent; the Crown attorneys who prosecuted them were innocent; and the jailers who guarded them were innocent. My criminal acquaintances were responsible for their own incarceration.

Whether you like it or not, Gazans are solely responsible for their plight and they are now suffering the consequences of their poor choices.

FL

[RickD]

Well Neo,

I looked at your links, and then did a little searching on my own. The thing that stood out the most to me, is just how horrible this war is. Reading stories about babies and children dying, is just awful.

But the more I read, I come to the conclusion that Hamas is responsible for civilian deaths. Houses with Palestinian families are bombed. But it comes to light that there's always a member of Hamas in those houses. And the Hamas member is the target. Again, human shields. And Hamas is not only killing Israeli citizens, but they're killing their own citizens and family. Using their deaths as propaganda tools. Here's a few links I came across:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... tries.html

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/wo ... rrer=&_r=0

http://campaignfortruth.info/page.aspx?id=245877

http://m.newsbusters.org/blogs/jeffrey- ... -israel-ta

[Philip]

History lessons of how Israel has arrived at the present really won't change the situation. And I would say that anyone that describes Israel as "occupiers" of Palestinian lands does not believe what Scripture reveals about whose land it is it is - it's Israel's! WHO do you think restored them to it? Do you really think that ancient Israel became a nation again by pure chance or accident?

For those who think Israel shouldn't attack the locations where the attacks are coming from - as Hamas most definitely attacks from civilian areas - what do you think Israel should do? Simply absorb and ignore them, as if that will make them go away? Few here seem to appreciate the smallness of the geographical area. It is HAMAS that forces Israel to engage Hamas from the very locations they are staging the attacks from. And I'm also getting the sense that those whom view Israel as an occupier (on the very land God gave them) also seem to think Hamas constant launching of rocket attacks is a reasonable and moral response. And let's not forget that Israel had turned over Gaza, but what did they do but initiate hundreds of such attacks - not as a response to Israeli aggression, but in naked aggression on civilian targets. And so Israel has an enemy that is dedicated to its destruction - just miles away, launching hundreds of unprovoked attacks. So, what should they do to stop Hamas ability to cause such destructive attacks?

[melanie]

History lessons of how Israel has arrived at the present really won't change the situation. And I would say that anyone that describes Israel as "occupiers" of Palestinian lands does not believe what Scripture reveals about whose land it is it is - it's Israel's! WHO do you think restored them to it? Do you really think that ancient Israel became a nation again by pure chance or accident?

For those who think Israel shouldn't attack the locations where the attacks are coming from - as Hamas most definitely attacks from civilian areas - what do you think Israel should do? Simply absorb and ignore them, as if that will make them go away? Few here seem to appreciate the smallness of the geographical area. It is HAMAS that forces Israel to engage Hamas from the very locations they are staging the attacks from. And I'm also getting the sense that those whom view Israel as an occupier (on the very land God gave them) also seem to think Hamas constant launching of rocket attacks is a reasonable and moral response. And let's not forget that Israel had turned over Gaza, but what did they do but initiate hundreds of such attacks - not as a response to Israeli aggression, but in naked aggression on civilian targets. And so Israel has an enemy that is dedicated to its destruction - just miles away, launching hundreds of unprovoked attacks. So, what should they do to stop Hamas ability to cause such destructive attacks?

No Phillip, it did not become a nation again by pure chance or accident. There was a hand in it, but it was not the hand of God, in as much that The Almighty allows what will be according to His will, so yes to fulfil His purpose but not at all in the sense that you and so many others seem to think.
According to history and fact, the restoration of Israel was first brought into fruition by the Rothschild family, this is not conspiracy theory, it is historical fact. I will post the link again, this time from Wikipedia;
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_ ... on_of_1917
This was the very first step towards Israel becoming a nation again. They are and were instrumental in the birth of Zionism and openly admit their zionist agenda, they have gone on record as stating this. Between 1890 and 1924 Edmound Rothschild was already establishing many settlements in Palestine. Later his son, James, in 1958 established Yad Hanadiv, to finance the Zionist entity of Israel. Today, Jacob Rothschild is the Director of Yad Hanadiv. Now the Rothschild family are secular Jews, this was NOT done in the name of God, this was done to fulfil a purpose, the purpose of the Rothschild, zionist agenda, which is very far removed from our Almighty.
There are 6 media companies that exist today. There used to be 88. These 6 all get their news from Reuters and the Associated Press. Reuters owns the AP and Rothschilds own Reuters. The same family that instigated the rebuilding of Israel now controls everything you see and watch on the news. Not to mention all the other companies and banks they own, and their connection to the federal reserve and the price setting of gold, that the dollar is set against. until 2004 , there were 6 men, that met twice a day at the premises of N M Rothschild & Sons by the members of The London Gold Market Fixing Ltd, to set the price of gold, that your dollar is measured by, of course of which a Rothschild has always been a part of, this practice has been going on for many many years. Now it is done over the phone.
President Simon Peres said "Never has a family donated so much of its wealth to the making of the State of Israel.”
Due to Yad Hanadiv donating 6 million Israeli Pounds towards the construction of the Knesset building & millions more for the Israeli Supreme Court, and because of his continual benefactions, Jacob Rothschild has been named an “Honorary Fellow of Jerusalem.”
They started the implementation of Israel through the Balfour agreement, they have financed the nation. This is not the divine hand of God this is the hand of the Rothschild family. If you think they are working for the good of The Lord then you are massively, sadly mistaken my friend.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

OK...now this topic has descended into ''The Jews Control The World!'' stupidity. Absolute stupidity. Time to lock it up.

FL

[melanie]

OK...now this topic has descended into ''The Jews Control The World!'' stupidity. Absolute stupidity. Time to lock it up.

FL

You can call it whatever you like FL. Instead of claiming stupidity how about you actually look at the historical and current facts. I got my information from credible, historical factual information, some taken from the Rothschilds own official website. I stay away from conspiracy theory websites. I never said it was a conspiracy, I just stated credible, factual information, you have made the assumption and link to conspiracy not me.
They have named themselves Zionists, with a very clear, open agenda, to restore the state of Israel. The Rothschilds were instrumental in the name of Zionism to make this happen, this is not stupidity, nor conspiracy, no pinky and the brain "let's take over the world" game, just simply easily accessible fact.
Conspiracy means something illegal done in secret. This is not secret. This info can be found openly on Wikipedia and impartial history websites. How about you take a look instead of claiming stupidity before being adequately educated on the matter

[Gman]

OK...now this topic has descended into ''The Jews Control The World!'' stupidity. Absolute stupidity. Time to lock it up.

FL

You can call it whatever you like FL. Instead of claiming stupidity how about you actually look at the historical and current facts. I got my information from credible, historical factual information, some taken from the Rothschilds own official website. I stay away from conspiracy theory websites. I never said it was a conspiracy, I just stated credible, factual information, you have made the assumption and link to conspiracy not me.
They have named themselves Zionists, with a very clear, open agenda, to restore the state of Israel. The Rothschilds were instrumental in the name of Zionism to make this happen, this is not stupidity, nor conspiracy, no pinky and the brain "let's take over the world" game, just simply easily accessible fact.
Conspiracy means something illegal done in secret. This is not secret. This info can be found openly on Wikipedia and impartial history websites. How about you take a look instead of claiming stupidity before being adequately educated on the matter

LOL.. Anyone with any knowledge already knows that the State of Israel was NOT solely started by religious people. Gee.. Of course they were mainly composed of secular Zionists even though there were already religious Jews living there. Numerous Jews were exiled back to Israel after many EVIL "so called" Christians burnt their synagogues down and murdered over 6 million Jews. Strangely only a few Christians ever spoke out about this carnage. I wonder why..

I'm very happy that there were some rich secular people that were instrumental in forming the State of Israel, because without this support, the State of Israel would have been completely destroyed by the Islamic extremists. So thank you all you rich folk out there! And the Arab people in Israel would probably also thank these people for giving them jobs, voting rights, protection of women, and hospital care that these poor people desperately need.

And if you think that G-d breaks his land covenants with the Jews, such as in Genesis 17:7-8, Genesis 26:2-5, Genesis 28:13-15, Deuteronomy 4:40, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, Jeremiah 31:35-37, Joshua 14:9, Psalm 105:9-11, Psalm 89:27-29, Psalm 105:8-11, what makes you think he won't break His covenants with you??

And Jesus was a Zionist Jew too...

[Gman]

Just a FEW things Israel does to help the Arabs...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6epdzZOH18[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngt5YvLM9Kg[/youtube]

[B. W.]

One side uses civs because they like to and the other kills them because they have to. And presumably the latter is right. Well whats the difference? both of them have innocent blood on their hands.

No. I quoted General Sherman who said, ''War is Hell''. And I said that civilian casualties are a normal result of war. Hamas and the population that elected them are wholly to blame for the present war.

On the palwatch website - which you seem to ignore - I saw something remarkable: a talkshow host asked a girl who appeared to be 5 years old, ''How many Jews did your mommy kill?'' the little girl held up her hand with 4 fingers extended. The interviewer exclaimed, ''Praise Allah!'' and the little girl beamed a big smile. Another show, another child: a boy of about 8 is asked, ''What do you want to do when you become a man?'' The boy answered, ''A martyr.'' What kind of sick society produces such children? Do you really think Israel is to blame for creating this hate?

As for drone strikes in Pakistan and you living in fear, these have nothing to do with the present conflict. Your empathy with the people of Gaza is muddying the waters...but I understand you. I used to work with prisonners: murderers, serial murderers and narcotics traffickers. I got to know many of these men and even enjoyed their company. But I always knew that these guys were responsible for their own incarceration. The police who arrested them were innocent; the Crown attorneys who prosecuted them were innocent; and the jailers who guarded them were innocent. My criminal acquaintances were responsible for their own incarceration.

Whether you like it or not, Gazans are solely responsible for their plight and they are now suffering the consequences of their poor choices.

FL

Like FL, I worked with criminals and some of the worst too. They are responsible for their own actions and seek to blame others to justify what they do. Soon, in the USA terrorist will hide behind civilians and began crimes here. One thing I learned in the field of criminal justice is that pure evil indeed exist and often Good has to war openly against it in the most brutal fashion to stop its spread. Book of Revelation describes this very thing.

Evil pervades in Gaza and from infants onward all youth are corrupted by this evil and so an entire population, yet, we in the west think this is impossible as the west thinks all people are basically good. Sorry, that is wrong - the evil of Islam's hate toward Christians and Jews knows no bounds. It is being unleashed in Iraq and in Gaza as well. These folks have you in their sights, and train their children with reckless hate. They know a good photo op and how to photo shop out the rocket launch form a crowded market, make the people stay, so when the counter battery fire hits, the news cameras can blame Israel for killing a few innocent but many hate filled civilians - all martyrs for the glory of Islam. Evil knows no bounds.

Next regarding the false claim that the nation of Israel is illegitimate and came about not by God's hand but by human beings more powerful than sovereign God...

Isaiah 11:11, 12 says this: It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. NKJV

So what if God chose the ubber-rich to to help the Jews establish a homeland form midst the countries that desired to kill them all 1933-1945. Now, what I am hearing form some on this board is that God had nothing to do with Israel becoming a nation again the second time because it was those like the Rothchild's who made it happen - not God. If then if that is true then, how can God really be sovereign? A sparrow cannot fall unless by God's design yet a whole nation can appear without God's hand in it at all? I am thankful God is not evil but rather will rid the world of true evil soon enough - come Lord Jesus.

You know what I find amazing is how God moved Cyrus's heart to release the Jews and gave them the funds and wealth to re-establish the Nation during the first regathering. So why can't he move the hearts of the wealthy to do so again to save a race of people from genocide amongst a world that hates them back into their own homeland just as God decreed? God hasn't forsaken all the Jewish people, he made a everlasting covenant with them. Let's not also forget, as Christians, our heads are on the chopping block of Islam too as are all free people...

Pure evil plays people, please don't forget that, and in Gaza pure evil - Hamas - are playing the world for fools.

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! NKJV

Mal 2:17
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