Evidence for God from Science

Starhunter wrote:You don't need a Bible, or the law, or the gospel, because the Spirit of God convicts all, and if the convictions are followed then they will bring you to the Bible, the law and the Gospel, which testify of Christ your redeemer.
You can eat a meal without a table or chair, or even a plate, but when soup is served you better have at least a bowl.

Who decides what is good or God's will? Say Abram's situation? Abram listened to God, knew His voice, and Abram could not understand why God would ask him to commit a heathen sacrifice. But Abram was at a point in his life when he wanted to know God personally, and God shared with Abram what He feels about having to sacrifice His own Son, by giving Abram a taste of the experience. When you share your deepest concern with someone, you are giving your heart.

Immorality is defined as disobedience to God. To disobey the voice of reason and conscience is to disobey God as well, regardless of other factors. God is not unfair with His convictions and or timing of them, but very tender and apt, so as to create the greatest potential for love to develop.

But the only way you could possibly believe the spirit of god convicts us all is because you read it in the bible first.

So how do you know god is good, who decides he's actions are good? Because if you say that you decide whats moral or not then thrown god in the bin he's no use to you then.

He feels about having to sacrifice His own Son, by giving Abram a taste of the experience. When you share your deepest concern with someone, you are giving your heart.[quote][/quote]

I totally understand what your saying here but the thing is it's all unneccesary, because it didn't have to be that way, god wasn't forced to sacrifice jesus it was his choice to, he could of decided any other way to forgive, but for some reason he chose a human sacrifice, so don't make out that god wanted to let abraham feel what it's like to sacrifice his son because god could of made it that he was going to eat ice cream to forgive us then he'd ask abraham to eat ice cream to know what it feels like to forgive.

Is god held hostage by his own rules or something, and if thats the case then are you saying an all knowing all loving all powerfull god can't make a rule that didn't require a human sacrifice to begin with or does he just dig self mutilation?

outlaw wrote:

1over137 wrote:Outlaw, you are an avalanche.

Question by you which interested me the most is this one

, why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of heaven. There we will not disobey and we will do it freely.

Bible is kind of a story of humans. From their creation, through their separation from God, to their final reconciliation with God. So, why he allowed that we move away from him? Well, I do not have all the answers, but it is like, he let us learn about him. Free will is related to ability to oppose Him. Sin is opposing God. He did not create robots. He did not create something which would not be able to have a relationship with him. And this relationship is not a cheated one. In this one we indeed are capable of disobeying God. People suffer because they are far away from their original state. We suffer because we are not with God. Like a plant which distanced from the source of water. We distanced from the source of our happiness.

In heaven, having learned what a wreck we are without him, we will be infinitely grateful and we will not have a desire to disobey anymore.

Saying that we need to go through this life in order to become grateful so we don't feel the need to disobey anymore is my whole point.

If humans are capable of having free will but at the same time not feeeling the desire to disobey then why not create us like that to begin with?

Where did that desire to disobey come from if he apparently made us perfect?

Why create us here able to feel pain and suffer just so he can watch as we play his faith game, while the whole time he has a place free of pain and suffering where we still are free but will no longer use the freedom to disobey do or harm?

Does he allow children to suffer and starve on earth just to teach us some sort of lesson so one day we'll appreciate him or because he doesn't want to violate our free will? Because id much rather be a happy robot programmed with the perception i was choosing freely and never be able to suffer or feel pain wouldn't you?

If god says only people with free will can be truely happy, why can't he just as easily say only robots can truely be happy? he makes the rules right? that way we'd never disobey and wouldn't need saving from anything, it would require no human sacrifice to pay and we'd all end up in heaven just where he wants us.

But when you think about it theres no way in the world god would be silly enough to create us without the ability to disobey him, because then it would make god pretty much obsolete wouldn't it? i mean there would be no need to worship a god for saving us when we've got nothing to be saved from right?

You concluded your view in this one sentence: " Because id much rather be a happy robot programmed with the perception i was choosing freely and never be able to suffer or feel pain wouldn't you?"

You would rather be a robot.

Outlaw wrote -= I totally understand what your saying here but the thing is it's all unneccesary, because it didn't have to be that way, god wasn't forced to sacrifice jesus it was his choice to, he could of decided any other way to forgive, but for some reason he chose a human sacrifice, so don't make out that god wanted to let abraham feel what it's like to sacrifice his son because god could of made it that he was going to eat ice cream to forgive us then he'd ask abraham to eat ice cream to know what it feels like to forgive.
Is god held hostage by his own rules or something, and if thats the case then are you saying an all knowing all loving all powerfull god can't make a rule that didn't require a human sacrifice to begin with or does he just dig self mutilation?

Outlaw, you are asking many questions all somehow related, would it help if we worked out one issue at a time?
I don't know the answers, but I think they are too important to ignore, and I don't know where to begin.

Your thoughts are identical to what I have from time to time. I have no idea how the substitution thing can work, it is like the biscuit story that you told. I accept that what God did by His Son was the only option, but I am in the fog as to why.

I believe the rules of God are who He is by nature, He cannot help who He is - so to speak. So He will never make a rule that does not agree with His mindset or character, unless He is capable of being fake.

But the only way you could possibly believe the spirit of god convicts us all is because you read it in the bible first.
So how do you know god is good, who decides he's actions are good? Because if you say that you decide whats moral or not then thrown god in the bin he's no use to you then.

Personally, I 'met' God when very young, and I was convicted of who He is, even though I had no idea that He had a Son, until I had contact with church publications, which BW pointed out are one of God's means of reaching people.
There are thousands of ways that God gives a message of love to the world, but most directly through agents such as the assembly of believers, the Bible, the conscience, nature and providence.

Starhunter wrote:

Outlaw wrote -= I totally understand what your saying here but the thing is it's all unneccesary, because it didn't have to be that way, god wasn't forced to sacrifice jesus it was his choice to, he could of decided any other way to forgive, but for some reason he chose a human sacrifice, so don't make out that god wanted to let abraham feel what it's like to sacrifice his son because god could of made it that he was going to eat ice cream to forgive us then he'd ask abraham to eat ice cream to know what it feels like to forgive.
Is god held hostage by his own rules or something, and if thats the caIse then are you saying an all knowing all loving all powerfull god can't make a rule that didn't require a human sacrifice to begin with or does he just dig self mutilation?

Outlaw, you are asking many questions all somehow related, would it help if we worked out one issue at a time?
I don't know the answers, but I think they are too important to ignore, and I don't know where to begin.

Your thoughts are identical to what I have from time to time. I have no idea how the substitution thing can work, it is like the biscuit story that you told. I accept that what God did by His Son was the only option, but I am in the fog as to why.

I believe the rules of God are who He is by nature, He cannot help who He is - so to speak. So He will never make a rule that does not agree with His mindset or character, unless He is capable of being fake.

Yes I know and yes it would help to sort out one at a time, if you or anyone can make sense of it id like to hear a simple coherent explanation.
Why would you believe that this all powerful god who apparently created everything cannot help who he is?
Wouldn't of god been the one who created the very nature in which you speak?
What's stopping it from creating humans who never feel the desire to sin? like we will apparently be in heaven.
Whats stopping it from forgiving without mutilating part of itself? The answer is and has to be 'itself' it is stopping itself because it's the one who apparently made everything and created the whole redemption system.
So im forced to ask why does this thing receive any praise at all for saving us, when it's capable of creating us without the ability to sin? And if it's not capable then why call it god?

1over137 wrote:

outlaw wrote:

1over137 wrote:Outlaw, you are an avalanche.

Question by you which interested me the most is this one

, why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of heaven. There we will not disobey and we will do it freely.

Bible is kind of a story of humans. From their creation, through their separation from God, to their final reconciliation with God. So, why he allowed that we move away from him? Well, I do not have all the answers, but it is like, he let us learn about him. Free will is related to ability to oppose Him. Sin is opposing God. He did not create robots. He did not create something which would not be able to have a relationship with him. And this relationship is not a cheated one. In this one we indeed are capable of disobeying God. People suffer because they are far away from their original state. We suffer because we are not with God. Like a plant which distanced from the source of water. We distanced from the source of our happiness.

In heaven, having learned what a wreck we are without him, we will be infinitely grateful and we will not have a desire to disobey anymore.

Saying that we need to go through this life in order to become grateful so we don't feel the need to disobey anymore is my whole point.

If humans are capable of having free will but at the same time not feeeling the desire to disobey then why not create us like that to begin with?

Where did that desire to disobey come from if he apparently made us perfect?

Why create us here able to feel pain and suffer just so he can watch as we play his faith game, while the whole time he has a place free of pain and suffering where we still are free but will no longer use the freedom to disobey do or harm?

Does he allow children to suffer and starve on earth just to teach us some sort of lesson so one day we'll appreciate him or because he doesn't want to violate our free will? Because id much rather be a happy robot programmed with the perception i was choosing freely and never be able to suffer or feel pain wouldn't you?

If god says only people with free will can be truely happy, why can't he just as easily say only robots can truely be happy? he makes the rules right? that way we'd never disobey and wouldn't need saving from anything, it would require no human sacrifice to pay and we'd all end up in heaven just where he wants us.

But when you think about it theres no way in the world god would be silly enough to create us without the ability to disobey him, because then it would make god pretty much obsolete wouldn't it? i mean there would be no need to worship a god for saving us when we've got nothing to be saved from right?

You concluded your view in this one sentence: " Because id much rather be a happy robot programmed with the perception i was choosing freely and never be able to suffer or feel pain wouldn't you?"

You would rather be a robot.

Yes i'd rather be a happy robot that felt as though i was making my own decisions than to actually have free will and capable of suffering and feeling pain as a result.
When i say robot i don't mean a machine, im talking about a human who is incapable of sin cause apparently it's the free will given to us by god that allows us to sin.
Whats the difference between freely choosing and feeling like your freely choosing?
It's the same as saying, whats the difference between god really existing and you believing god really exists?
if god feels real to you then to you god is real, if you feel like your freely choosing then to you your freely choosing, Perception is reality.
if you'd rather suffer than thats up to you, ill take the robot option.

But god wouldn't make us unable to sin because then he'd have nothing to save us from and we'd have nothing to worship him for would we? god would essentially be cutting himself out of the picture, god survives on sin, it's almost like someone made up the whole story just so they could feel a bit better about sinning, to feel forgiven for the things they do.
But who cares if a intangible invisible entity forgives you? i'm only concerned about the people i've wronged forgiving me, it doesn't really bother me if a spirit forgives me or not.

Starhunter wrote:

But the only way you could possibly believe the spirit of god convicts us all is because you read it in the bible first.
So how do you know god is good, who decides he's actions are good? Because if you say that you decide whats moral or not then thrown god in the bin he's no use to you then.

Personally, I 'met' God when very young, and I was convicted of who He is, even though I had no idea that He had a Son, until I had contact with church publications, which BW pointed out are one of God's means of reaching people.
There are thousands of ways that God gives a message of love to the world, but most directly through agents such as the assembly of believers, the Bible, the conscience, nature and providence.

Do you realise that theres many others that claim the same thing but believe in and describe god totally different to what you do?
If there was one god, why are so many people percieving it so differently?
When you say you 'met' god did you see it? or when you close your eyes and picture god, what image do you get?
Could you draw that image and post it? Im interested to see what god to you looks like.

All the questions are related, but let's start with what we know first.
Why does death have to be the penalty?
Easy answer, if a creep came and groomed your child, tortured and killed the child, what is the likely penalty as far as God is concerned? Or as far as you are concerned? The same treatment and death. It cannot be otherwise or the neighbor's child is next. Life sentence is also just. So long as it is prevented from happening again. Rehabilitation is also an option, rarely works.
The trouble with sin is that it starts off as a small thing, vanity and progresses to mass murder like it has with Satan. So as far as God is concerned, even diluted sin is totally unacceptable. God will never be sarcastic, and never have any secret hate. If He doesn't like something He spells it out loud and clear. Sinners on the other hand pretend to be righteous at all costs.
What about temporary sin? Unfortunately no sin has a temporary effect.

So we are talking about a universe which is consequential on all levels, spiritually - sin eventually affects a whole society,and on the physical level we know that everything has consequence, for example - the butterfly effect.

If we want to have a wholistic experience, to be sensitized as well as influential on whatever we come into contact, then the universe must be designed to be sensitive and effectual, for an enormous interaction of all life and all things.
In this system everything is vital and important, like one harmonious orchestration of creation.
That concept is not only inclusive of intense wisdom but incredibly up there with intelligence.
The interactions designed in the universe are infinitely complex and above all perfectly wise, that's what makes it so mysterious, beautiful and full of wonder.

A wife is an example of this mystery, but if you want a universe without consequence or even one with limited consequences, then you might as well marry a mannequin.

Life is very powerful and eternal, but at the same time vulnerable and fragile. In a perfect world there is perfect love, and there is no risk in it, no pain ever, no death ever, no harm or danger whatsoever, but as soon as we introduce some creep, it turns to hell, no matter how nice they are in the first place.

The world we are looking for where there is no pain and suffering was created by God in the first place, and will be restored again.

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.

Let's go further and say that God creates a universe which has beings who experience all the good feelings of love, and eternal joy, but makes them believe that they are free and loving, they do not know that they are animated.
Where is the love between God and them? there is no love there and worse He cannot give it.
How much agony do we go through when we lose someone and cannot give our love to them any more?

The only way that God could create an artificial universe, is if He was artificial Himself, which means He could not possibly exist, because artificiality has no life in it and is not eternal.

So God is Life, Love and real, and death to anything which wants to rebel against that.

By the way, in heaven and the new earth, we are not animated, never. Genuine love can only exist with genuine freedom.

What is there to stop sin entering again? There has been an unnecessary battle, because Lucifer claimed that -
all "morally free creatures cannot be free so long as the law of God governs them" "Every creature should be able to do as they please according to their own moral judgement, and are not free until they do."
To find out if this claim has any merit, read the ten commandments and see which one is no good.
The war between Christ and Satan is over the issue of loyalty to God and His commandments.
Satan thinks he is entitled to the same rights as Christ, the same level of authority and worship, and to this end he works to gain allegiance from humankind, therefore he has incubated himself into religions, where we find goodness covering the activity of creeps. The idea of a universal Christ, "one lord over all" is his final move to unite the world into worshiping a false Christ which is indeed himself.

The whole rebellion has been allowed by God, because its true nature was not apparent in its beginnings, and now it is being waged on earth with men, because they joined the rebellion. God gives life to all, regardless of their loyalty and disloyalty, and freedom to all, within the limits of the laws of the land, - which in a good country are based on the last six commandments. But then here, we have another fierce battle going on - corruption in high places...

Starhunter wrote:All the questions are related, but let's start with what we know first.
Why does death have to be the penalty?
Easy answer, if a creep came and groomed your child, tortured and killed the child, what is the likely penalty as far as God is concerned? Or as far as you are concerned? The same treatment and death. It cannot be otherwise or the neighbor's child is next. Life sentence is also just. So long as it is prevented from happening again. Rehabilitation is also an option, rarely works.
The trouble with sin is that it starts off as a small thing, vanity and progresses to mass murder like it has with Satan. So as far as God is concerned, even diluted sin is totally unacceptable. God will never be sarcastic, and never have any secret hate. If He doesn't like something He spells it out loud and clear. Sinners on the other hand pretend to be righteous at all costs.
What about temporary sin? Unfortunately no sin has a temporary effect.

So we are talking about a universe which is consequential on all levels, spiritually - sin eventually affects a whole society,and on the physical level we know that everything has consequence, for example - the butterfly effect.

If we want to have a wholistic experience, to be sensitized as well as influential on whatever we come into contact, then the universe must be designed to be sensitive and effectual, for an enormous interaction of all life and all things.
In this system everything is vital and important, like one harmonious orchestration of creation.
That concept is not only inclusive of intense wisdom but incredibly up there with intelligence.
The interactions designed in the universe are infinitely complex and above all perfectly wise, that's what makes it so mysterious, beautiful and full of wonder.

A wife is an example of this mystery, but if you want a universe without consequence or even one with limited consequences, then you might as well marry a mannequin.

Life is very powerful and eternal, but at the same time vulnerable and fragile. In a perfect world there is perfect love, and there is no risk in it, no pain ever, no death ever, no harm or danger whatsoever, but as soon as we introduce some creep, it turns to hell, no matter how nice they are in the first place.

The world we are looking for where there is no pain and suffering was created by God in the first place, and will be restored again.

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.

Let's go further and say that God creates a universe which has beings who experience all the good feelings of love, and eternal joy, but makes them believe that they are free and loving, they do not know that they are animated.
Where is the love between God and them? there is no love there and worse He cannot give it.
How much agony do we go through when we lose someone and cannot give our love to them any more?

The only way that God could create an artificial universe, is if He was artificial Himself, which means He could not possibly exist, because artificiality has no life in it and is not eternal.

So God is Life, Love and real, and death to anything which wants to rebel against that.

By the way, in heaven and the new earth, we are not animated, never. Genuine love can only exist with genuine freedom.

What is there to stop sin entering again? There has been an unnecessary battle, because Lucifer claimed that -
all "morally free creatures cannot be free so long as the law of God governs them" "Every creature should be able to do as they please according to their own moral judgement, and are not free until they do."
To find out if this claim has any merit, read the ten commandments and see which one is no good.
The war between Christ and Satan is over the issue of loyalty to God and His commandments.
Satan thinks he is entitled to the same rights as Christ, the same level of authority and worship, and to this end he works to gain allegiance from humankind, therefore he has incubated himself into religions, where we find goodness covering the activity of creeps. The idea of a universal Christ, "one lord over all" is his final move to unite the world into worshiping a false Christ which is indeed himself.

The whole rebellion has been allowed by God, because its true nature was not apparent in its beginnings, and now it is being waged on earth with men, because they joined the rebellion. God gives life to all, regardless of their loyalty and disloyalty, and freedom to all, within the limits of the laws of the land, - which in a good country are based on the last six commandments. But then here, we have another fierce battle going on - corruption in high places...

Well put Starhunter

Starhunter wrote:All the questions are related, but let's start with what we know first.
Why does death have to be the penalty?
Easy answer, if a creep came and groomed your child, tortured and killed the child, what is the likely penalty as far as God is concerned? Or as far as you are concerned? The same treatment and death. It cannot be otherwise or the neighbor's child is next. Life sentence is also just. So long as it is prevented from happening again. Rehabilitation is also an option, rarely works.
The trouble with sin is that it starts off as a small thing, vanity and progresses to mass murder like it has with Satan. So as far as God is concerned, even diluted sin is totally unacceptable. God will never be sarcastic, and never have any secret hate. If He doesn't like something He spells it out loud and clear. Sinners on the other hand pretend to be righteous at all costs.
What about temporary sin? Unfortunately no sin has a temporary effect.

So we are talking about a universe which is consequential on all levels, spiritually - sin eventually affects a whole society,and on the physical level we know that everything has consequence, for example - the butterfly effect.

If we want to have a wholistic experience, to be sensitized as well as influential on whatever we come into contact, then the universe must be designed to be sensitive and effectual, for an enormous interaction of all life and all things.
In this system everything is vital and important, like one harmonious orchestration of creation.
That concept is not only inclusive of intense wisdom but incredibly up there with intelligence.
The interactions designed in the universe are infinitely complex and above all perfectly wise, that's what makes it so mysterious, beautiful and full of wonder.

A wife is an example of this mystery, but if you want a universe without consequence or even one with limited consequences, then you might as well marry a mannequin.

Life is very powerful and eternal, but at the same time vulnerable and fragile. In a perfect world there is perfect love, and there is no risk in it, no pain ever, no death ever, no harm or danger whatsoever, but as soon as we introduce some creep, it turns to hell, no matter how nice they are in the first place.

The world we are looking for where there is no pain and suffering was created by God in the first place, and will be restored again.

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.

Let's go further and say that God creates a universe which has beings who experience all the good feelings of love, and eternal joy, but makes them believe that they are free and loving, they do not know that they are animated.
Where is the love between God and them? there is no love there and worse He cannot give it.
How much agony do we go through when we lose someone and cannot give our love to them any more?

The only way that God could create an artificial universe, is if He was artificial Himself, which means He could not possibly exist, because artificiality has no life in it and is not eternal.

So God is Life, Love and real, and death to anything which wants to rebel against that.

By the way, in heaven and the new earth, we are not animated, never. Genuine love can only exist with genuine freedom.

What is there to stop sin entering again? There has been an unnecessary battle, because Lucifer claimed that -
all "morally free creatures cannot be free so long as the law of God governs them" "Every creature should be able to do as they please according to their own moral judgement, and are not free until they do."
To find out if this claim has any merit, read the ten commandments and see which one is no good.
The war between Christ and Satan is over the issue of loyalty to God and His commandments.
Satan thinks he is entitled to the same rights as Christ, the same level of authority and worship, and to this end he works to gain allegiance from humankind, therefore he has incubated himself into religions, where we find goodness covering the activity of creeps. The idea of a universal Christ, "one lord over all" is his final move to unite the world into worshiping a false Christ which is indeed himself.

The whole rebellion has been allowed by God, because its true nature was not apparent in its beginnings, and now it is being waged on earth with men, because they joined the rebellion. God gives life to all, regardless of their loyalty and disloyalty, and freedom to all, within the limits of the laws of the land, - which in a good country are based on the last six commandments. But then here, we have another fierce battle going on - corruption in high places...

My question is not WHY does death have to be the penalty, It's WHO made death the penalty? The answer is god, god also said if we only obeyed him we'd live forever, but he also gave us free will to choose, then chose the penalty for not choosing to obey him, then so he didn't have to follow through with that penalty, he comes up with the plan to sacrifice part of himself and that will over ride his initial penalty and somehow allow us to still go on sinning but also still be able to live forever.
If he was going to change his rule anyway, why make the first one to begin with? why go through the unnessesary sacrifice? More importantly why praise this god for doing this?

The trouble with sin is that it starts off as a small thing, vanity and progresses to mass murder like it has with Satan.

Are you saying sin 'always' progresses or has the possibility to? Because i sin and and mine is yet to progress to murder. What do you mean like it has with satan? if you do a body count using the bible to calculate the amount of people satan and god have killed it looks roughly like this. Satan 10, God 2,500,000.
Theres a problem i have in the part where adam and eve disobeyed, adam and eve if they knew the consequences if they were able to make an informed decission then punishment is justified but they were yet to eat from the tree of knowledge so they didn't know good from bad yet, they were the equivilent of a 2 month old baby putting its fist in its mouth even after an authoritative figure told it not to.
Does this baby deserve punishment? Do the children of this baby deserve punishment?

The world we are looking for where there is no pain and suffering was created by God in the first place, and will be restored again.

Well what went wrong? where did the desire to disobey come from if we were created perfect in a perfect place?
Why didn't god hit the reset button straight away? Why wait till he had to flood us?

Earlier you claim that god knows that sin starts as small things and gets worse, so god would of known one day things would get worse and he'd have to do something (like flood the world) why not just nip it in the bud early or not create us with the ability to sin or better still not create anything at all, he didn't have to, we'd never know.
If he was perfect why does a perfect being feel the need to create anything? If you say he did it out of love, was he lacking love?

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.

So your saying only things that disobey god can love? Why?

God creates the game the rules to the game and the players so im told, so god could of created us any way he wanted.
Is there something stopping this omnipotent omniscient deity from creating something that does not sin and also has the ability to love?

If im not mistaken we will not sin in heaven right? so going by you thinking there's no love in heaven also, if thats so why do you want to go there?

Genuine love can only exist with genuine freedom.

If you perceive something as genuine then to you it's genuine, if you perceive god as real then to you god is real. If your in jail but still feel free then to you your free, im sure there's people that feel more free when some of their choices are taken away from them when some of what you would describe as freedom is taken away from them. Perception is reality.
Whats to stop god creating an artificial world and making humans to perceive it' as real?

You seem to want to have it doth ways, you want to say god is so powerful that humans can't even comprehend his power or understand his mind, but then you want to go and try to impose limits on it when someone presents the problems that come along with saying god is omnipotent.
Christians also like to say things like who are you to judge god while at the same time they judge him as good and just etc. Double standards.

outlaw wrote: My question is not WHY does death have to be the penalty, It's WHO made death the penalty?

Yes but we had to cover this basic Q, and we also covered "Who made the death penalty" - the God who kills creeps.

Are you saying sin 'always' progresses or has the possibility to? Because i sin and and mine is yet to progress to murder.

Without the Spirit of God giving you sensibility towards yourself and others, yes, you will eventually do whatever the sinful nature causes you to. Why? because you are a complex being, and whatever is at the control center dominates every thought and action. As Love influences every faculty of existence, so does sin influence every faculty, unless God places a barrier in your heart called the conscience. The ability to make choices over and above the effects of sin is the gift of God from the sacrifice of Christ.

What do you mean like it has with satan? if you do a body count using the bible to calculate the amount of people satan and god have killed it looks roughly like this. Satan 10, God 2,500,000.

Satan gets men to war. His armies first attacked Israel unprovoked. If God does nothing He is blamed for letting injustice prevail, if He wipes out creeps, He is blamed for murder.

Theres a problem i have in the part where adam and eve disobeyed, adam and eve if they knew the consequences if they were able to make an informed decission then punishment is justified but they were yet to eat from the tree of knowledge so they didn't know good from bad yet, they were the equivilent of a 2 month old baby putting its fist in its mouth even after an authoritative figure told it not to.

There was nothing difficult about a simple instruction to obey, they were both very bright and intelligent. Satan counted on Eve's mind to weigh out a thousand implications for every word he spoke. Something we cannot do today for lack of intelligence. The difficulty began by Eve allowing herself to go near the tree.

Well what went wrong? where did the desire to disobey come from if we were created perfect in a perfect place?
Why didn't God hit the reset button straight away? Why wait till he had to flood us?

There was no desire to disobey. a reset button is artificial, and false, it's a game. God does not play games.

Earlier you claim that god knows that sin starts as small things and gets worse, so god would of known one day things would get worse and he'd have to do something (like flood the world) why not just nip it in the bud early or not create us with the inability to sin or better still not create anything at all, he didn't have to, we'd never know.

We've already gone over the ground of the "inability to sin type creature."
Nipping it in the bud before it started? I don't know, we can work on that one later. There is a couple of things about God we can go into ...as with the next Q.

If he was perfect why does a perfect being feel the need to create anything? If you say he did it out of love, was he lacking love?

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.
So your saying only things that disobey god can love? Why?

Yes, you can only have a love relationship with a woman who has the freedom not to love you and leave - please note this misogynists. There's a vast difference between controlling and loving. Love is an intelligent interactive play, with eternal variables. Control only has one variable, my way or the highway.

God creates the game the rules to the game and the players so im told, so god could of created us any way he wanted.

The game rules are not pulled out of a hat, they are His personality, and because He is the living God these principles are active powers. So if God had His back turned, so to speak, you would still be either nurtured or killed according to His character.

Is there something stopping this omnipotent omniscient deity from creating something that does not sin and also has the ability to love?

Yes its called authenticity.

If im not mistaken we will not sin in heaven right? so going by your thinking there's no love in heaven also, if thats so why do you want to go there?

No I did not say that, the possibility to sin remains, as do the scars on Christ's hands.
Does God know whether sin will enter or not? Yes, and He has said that it will never enter again.

If you perceive something as genuine then to you it's genuine, if you perceive god as real then to you god is real. If your'e in jail but still feel free then to you your free, im sure there's people that feel more free when some of their choices are taken away from them when some of what you would describe as freedom is taken away from them. Perception is reality.
Whats to stop god creating an artificial world and making humans to perceive it' as real?

His honesty and integrity.

You seem to want to have it doth ways, you want to say god is so powerful that humans can't even comprehend his power or understand his mind, but then you want to go and try to impose limits on it when someone presents the problems that come along with saying god is omnipotent.
Christians also like to say things like who are you to judge god while at the same time they judge him as good and just etc. Double standards.

We cannot comprehend His greatness or physical nature, so to speak, but He has made the criterion of Love very simple so that even the dumbest can understand what love is. It's no mystery, Love is whatever life needs, and life is love.
Life does not like pain and death at all. Then to Love is to protect, to nurture, to play and interact, to be appropriate, creative, gentle, strong, everything possible except to be an insidious creep.

Now why allow a dysfunctional creation if God has foreknowledge?

Starhunter wrote:- the God who kills creeps.

Just wanted to clarify this statement. From what I have gathered in scripture, the manner in which God has treated Satan since day one of the rebellion is as a rightful son.
When Satan appeared in heaven claiming to represent earthlings, such as in the times of Job, God still accepted his self appointed role, even though Satan had been officially banned from heaven.
When Satan disputed with Christ over the body of the dead Moses,Jude verse 9, Christ did not utter a judgmental speech, even though He had every reason to.
Christ also came to a world that would basically reject Him, and so the world at large would be have corporate guilt in regards to His crucifixion. But it says that Christ died for his enemies.
So the attitude of God towards creeps is not one of condemnation, but of compassion and sorrow over their loss, but if His own life is of no value to them, then what is left for them but a separation from life? It would be cruel to sustain an eternal relation or connection on any level with Himself, because through time something has to come to a head, and that places the issues of the rebellion back to square one - where the creature wants to kill God and take the throne.

The Q is could such a disconnected life be sustained by God? Yes it has been so for over six thousand years, for both angels and men. But what sinners want, is for God to remove the consequences of sin, while they continue in sin. They also want to eliminate God altogether and reign as kings and queens.
This mentality of usurping and competition is the very cause of ruin in their own world. So the only way that a sinners fantasy can be created is if they are isolated from all other creatures, and yet able to exercise power over all others to manipulate them for their own desires. This can only happen if each one has their own universe to rule.

It is precisely this 'unconscious wish' of all sinners that they label God with and even expect Him to act accordingly.
The disrespect of His authority is a result of rejecting the personality of God which is to support and not dominate.

When the head angel Gabriel had trouble with a Persian ruler, Christ came to help through supporting Gabriel, but not to overrule the angel's actions and decisions, even though Christ ranked as head of all angels.
In the same manner, Gabriel will assist and support angels under him, those whose rank is over 100,000 or whatever number.

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote: My question is not WHY does death have to be the penalty, It's WHO made death the penalty?

Yes but we had to cover this basic Q, and we also covered "Who made the death penalty" - the God who kills creeps.

Are you saying sin 'always' progresses or has the possibility to? Because i sin and and mine is yet to progress to murder.

Without the Spirit of God giving you sensibility towards yourself and others, yes, you will eventually do whatever the sinful nature causes you to. Why? because you are a complex being, and whatever is at the control center dominates every thought and action. As Love influences every faculty of existence, so does sin influence every faculty, unless God places a barrier in your heart called the conscience. The ability to make choices over and above the effects of sin is the gift of God from the sacrifice of Christ.

What do you mean like it has with satan? if you do a body count using the bible to calculate the amount of people satan and god have killed it looks roughly like this. Satan 10, God 2,500,000.

Satan gets men to war. His armies first attacked Israel unprovoked. If God does nothing He is blamed for letting injustice prevail, if He wipes out creeps, He is blamed for murder.

Theres a problem i have in the part where adam and eve disobeyed, adam and eve if they knew the consequences if they were able to make an informed decission then punishment is justified but they were yet to eat from the tree of knowledge so they didn't know good from bad yet, they were the equivilent of a 2 month old baby putting its fist in its mouth even after an authoritative figure told it not to.

There was nothing difficult about a simple instruction to obey, they were both very bright and intelligent. Satan counted on Eve's mind to weigh out a thousand implications for every word he spoke. Something we cannot do today for lack of intelligence. The difficulty began by Eve allowing herself to go near the tree.

Well what went wrong? where did the desire to disobey come from if we were created perfect in a perfect place?
Why didn't God hit the reset button straight away? Why wait till he had to flood us?

There was no desire to disobey. a reset button is artificial, and false, it's a game. God does not play games.

Earlier you claim that god knows that sin starts as small things and gets worse, so god would of known one day things would get worse and he'd have to do something (like flood the world) why not just nip it in the bud early or not create us with the inability to sin or better still not create anything at all, he didn't have to, we'd never know.

We've already gone over the ground of the "inability to sin type creature."
Nipping it in the bud before it started? I don't know, we can work on that one later. There is a couple of things about God we can go into ...as with the next Q.

If he was perfect why does a perfect being feel the need to create anything? If you say he did it out of love, was he lacking love?

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.
So your saying only things that disobey god can love? Why?

Yes, you can only have a love relationship with a woman who has the freedom not to love you and leave - please note this misogynists. There's a vast difference between controlling and loving. Love is an intelligent interactive play, with eternal variables. Control only has one variable, my way or the highway.

God creates the game the rules to the game and the players so im told, so god could of created us any way he wanted.

The game rules are not pulled out of a hat, they are His personality, and because He is the living God these principles are active powers. So if God had His back turned, so to speak, you would still be either nurtured or killed according to His character.

Is there something stopping this omnipotent omniscient deity from creating something that does not sin and also has the ability to love?

Yes its called authenticity.

If im not mistaken we will not sin in heaven right? so going by your thinking there's no love in heaven also, if thats so why do you want to go there?

No I did not say that, the possibility to sin remains, as do the scars on Christ's hands.
Does God know whether sin will enter or not? Yes, and He has said that it will never enter again.

If you perceive something as genuine then to you it's genuine, if you perceive god as real then to you god is real. If your'e in jail but still feel free then to you your free, im sure there's people that feel more free when some of their choices are taken away from them when some of what you would describe as freedom is taken away from them. Perception is reality.
Whats to stop god creating an artificial world and making humans to perceive it' as real?

His honesty and integrity.

You seem to want to have it doth ways, you want to say god is so powerful that humans can't even comprehend his power or understand his mind, but then you want to go and try to impose limits on it when someone presents the problems that come along with saying god is omnipotent.
Christians also like to say things like who are you to judge god while at the same time they judge him as good and just etc. Double standards.

We cannot comprehend His greatness or physical nature, so to speak, but He has made the criterion of Love very simple so that even the dumbest can understand what love is. It's no mystery, Love is whatever life needs, and life is love.
Life does not like pain and death at all. Then to Love is to protect, to nurture, to play and interact, to be appropriate, creative, gentle, strong, everything possible except to be an insidious creep.

Now why allow a dysfunctional creation if God has foreknowledge?

Satan gets men to war. His armies first attacked Israel unprovoked. If God does nothing He is blamed for letting injustice prevail, if He wipes out creeps, He is blamed for murder.

Got any evidence for the existence of satan or satan doing this? Before you say the bible the bible is not evidence, the bible makes claims those claims need external verification to support them.
When you say wipes out creeps are babies and the unborn creeps? god wiped out everyone during the flood apparently.

There was no desire to disobey. a reset button is artificial, and false, it's a game. God does not play games.

If there was no desire to disobey then what caused eve to eat the fruit? Something caused eve to think '[love you] god im eating it',where did that something come from?

The difficulty began by Eve allowing herself to go near the tree.

Where did the that urge come from? are you getting it yet? if god created everything then everything flows back to the creator, everything that is in us today our hatred our rebellion evil all had to be put in us by god how else did it get here? he says it himself. isaiah 45:7
You know what i mean about a reset button, why not just start again he would have only have had to get rid of 2 people instead of drowning everyone later on.

The game rules are not pulled out of a hat, they are His personality

So what! his personality sucks then.
If i make a rule (due to my personality) that if you touch my car ill kill you, then you touch my car but i decide not to kill you, would you thank me for saving your life? Because thats what you do with god.

Is there something stopping this omnipotent omniscient deity from creating something that does not sin and also has the ability to love?

Yes its called authenticity.[/quote]

But yet you claim that we were born that way before the fall so there goes your authenticity arguement. Were adam and eve not free of sin at some stage, and if they never did sin, are you saying we'd never be able to love?

Let's say that God created something that does not sin, then it would have to be something that cannot love.

Your saying god created us without the ability to love and it wasn't until we sinned that we could start to love huh?

So if we had to sin in order to love, why are we punished for it? Why blame humans for it?
And if god wanted us to love then why not create us as sinners?
If it's love is not possible without sin why send jesus to save us from it?

No I did not say that, the possibility to sin remains, as do the scars on Christ's hands.
Does God know whether sin will enter or not? Yes, and He has said that it will never enter again.

I'm confused does free will exist in heaven or not?

Whats to stop god creating an artificial world and making humans to perceive it' as real?

His honesty and integrity.[/quote]

We cannot comprehend His greatness or physical nature

Who are you to judge god? how could you know god is honest if you can't comprehend his greatness or physical nature.
You can't claim to know that he's honesty and integrity are preventing him from anything.
Its like when i ask whats stopping god making and keeping us perfect? and you say 'his authenticity' so your saying he's stopping himself, well that proves my point if he's stopping himself from making us able to not break his rules, then punishing us for breaking his rules he's not worthy of praise.

If god is so powerfull and complex enough to create the whole universe, yet people claim they have a relationship with this thing, it would be the equivillent of a human having a relationship with the bacteria that lives under their fingernails. Impossible!

Outlaw,

You are not understanding something very basic. God created humans differently than other creatures. He created humans as spiritual beings. God has given humans the choice to have a relationship with God or not. In order for love to be love, it can't be forced. God cannot force us to love Him. It's not possible, because it wouldn't be love.