Evidence for God from Science

Not fair the NASB messes me up making my point when it comes to Hebrews 1:2 in my KJV it says this "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,whom he hath appointed heir of all things,by whom also he made the worlds." In this case which translation do we use? Somebody look at the greek word for worlds(KJV) or world(NASB)and it is eons.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Not fair the NASB messes me up making my point when it comes to Hebrews 1:2 in my KJV it says this "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,whom he hath appointed heir of all things,by whom also he made the worlds." In this case which translation do we use? Somebody look at the greek word for worlds(KJV) or world(NASB)and it is eons.

Heb 1:2 NKJV reads: ...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds...

The word translated world in NASB and worlds in NKJV is the Greek word eon which here denotes eternity and all that it contains including the the entire universe, us, all things, and their duration according to eternity etc. It serves as a direct link to Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Everlasting Father is a rather weakly translated and reads from Hebrew rather as - author (Champion) of eternity - which looks like this in Hebrew - El Gibbor Avi - God the Champion/Author of Eternity.

This conveys a whole array of meanings and one that Jesus is the author of Eternity and made all things. Please do not get me wrong, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all made everything as one being for they are one. Early Church fathers mentioned that Jesus the Son was the expression of God's wisdom/intelligence (logos) and thus was the arm of the Lord carrying out all the details involved in creation, with the Holy Spirit establishing creation by the will of the Father. Rather heady to go into great details here but read some of the early church fathers on Jesus from 1 Co 1:24, 30 and how by wisdom God made all things...

Eon is also translated as worlds in regard to everything created and hence, in my opinion the plural for worlds should be contained in the text of the NASB. However, it was taken out for whatever reason so decided upon. All translations into English have their flaws and the NASB is one that has the least flaws and a very good translation nevertheless.

in Hebrews 1:2 the meaning ties back into Isaiah 9:6 and that Jesus is indeed the Champion for us as the Author of Eternal Security for us - see Heb 1:3 and Heb 2:14, Heb 5:9 etc...
-
-
-

B. W. wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Not fair the NASB messes me up making my point when it comes to Hebrews 1:2 in my KJV it says this "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,whom he hath appointed heir of all things,by whom also he made the worlds." In this case which translation do we use? Somebody look at the greek word for worlds(KJV) or world(NASB)and it is eons.

Heb 1:2 NKJV reads: ...has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds...

The word translated world in NASB and worlds in NKJV is the Greek word eon which here denotes eternity and all that it contains including the the entire universe, us, all things, and their duration according to eternity etc. It serves as a direct link to Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Everlasting Father is a rather weakly translated and reads from Hebrew rather as - author (Champion) of eternity - which looks like this in Hebrew - El Gibbor Avi - God the Champion/Author of Eternity.

This conveys a whole array of meanings and one that Jesus is the author of Eternity and made all things. Please do not get me wrong, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all made everything as one being for they are one. Early Church fathers mentioned that Jesus the Son was the expression of God's wisdom/intelligence (logos) and thus was the arm of the Lord carrying out all the details involved in creation, with the Holy Spirit establishing creation by the will of the Father. Rather heady to go into great details here but read some of the early church fathers on Jesus from 1 Co 1:24, 30 and how by wisdom God made all things...

Eon is also translated as worlds in regard to everything created and hence, in my opinion the plural for worlds should be contained in the text of the NASB. However, it was taken out for whatever reason so decided upon. All translations into English have their flaws and the NASB is one that has the least flaws and a very good translation nevertheless.

in Hebrews 1:2 the meaning ties back into Isaiah 9:6 and that Jesus is indeed the Champion for us as the Author of Eternal Security for us - see Heb 1:3 and Heb 2:14, Heb 5:9 etc...
-
-
-

Thanks B.W. for the biblical clarification and I agree with you.It also seems to me that the translators of the KJV bible were aware of the Gap doctrine however not every Gap theorist uses the KJV bible and so it doesn't seem to matter.

I would like to try to add more evidence to back up the Gap theory idea that there was a former world on this earth full of life that perished.Since we Gap theorist think Jeremiah 4:23-28 is a look back in time and not forward we need to find evidence for ancient cities(see also Isaiah 14:17) that would have existed in the former world and I have come to find evidence for this from people who are into aliens,although I disagree with them about aliens we cannot ignore the evidence on the earth for ancient mysterious cities/structures that existed in the former world that clearly show highly advanced civilizations.Here are some things to consider.Jesus said the rocks will cry out if we do not praise him.Also keep in mind everything including history is looked at from an evolution perspective.Could it be when Lucifer was a good angel he ruled over a civilization until he rebelled?And this is why he was in Eden in the former world on this earth Ezekiel 28:11-13?Think of all of the fossils and evidence of coal and oil,etc in the earth's strata and blend that with these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjluvoX ... 0g&index=8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWjDlJo ... 0g&index=4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jkOCFT ... 0g&index=6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtuQbVf ... dex=7.This one is explained away by governments and scientists as naturally made or ignored despite this evidence.Would history be effected?

Plus think of Stone Henge,etc.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

I don't like to use just one verse to back it up as I like to put them all together like we do when it comes to bible prophecy however Let's deal with 2nd Peter 3:3-7 and based on what is described it cannot be referring to Noah's flood but if it is explain how you can fit Noah's flood into it based on the descriptions given in the text and what is described when compared to what we read about happened in Noah's flood and the descriptions given because if you can explain why/how this is referring to Noah's flood then I think you will have a reason to doubt the Gap in the text of it.Also if this is not referring to Noah's flood then what other flood in the bible could it be referring to?Also what world perished?

I personally like the KJV translation myself of 2nd Peter 3:3-7

KJV - "Knowing this first,that there shall come in the last days scoffers/mockers,walking after their own lusts,And saying,Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep/died,all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was being overflowed with water perished: But the heavens and earth which are now,by the same word are kept in store reserved unto fire against/until the day of judgment and the perdition of perdition/destruction of ungodly men."

NKJV - "Knowing this first:that scoffers will come in the last days,walking according to their own lusts,and saying,"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep,all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."For this they willingly forget:that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished,being flooded with water.But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word,reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

NIV - First of all,you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come,scoffing and following their own evil desires.They will say,Where is this coming he promised? Ever since our fathers died,everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Here is the Gap theory being taught by Perry Stone although this is just alittle of his teaching on it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD6cM08CGUU

Here is Bro. James Knox teaching on the Gap theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UjWgLRii4

Here are some things the bible does not say.

1. The beginning was 6-10,000 years ago.
2. The earth was created 6-10,000 years ago.
3. The 6 days of work was the same as the original work of verse 1.
4.The earth was created waste and empty in verse 1.
5.Light and darkness were created in day 1.This is not true because they were present in Lucifer's kingdom before Adam when the heavens and earth were flooded because of sin.Genesis 1:2,Psalm 104:6-9,2nd Peter 3:5-7,Jeremiah 4:23-28.
6.The earth was created chaos and flooded as in verse 2.
7.The clouds and water in them were created in day 2 Genesis 1:1-6. They had been created giving rain on the earth all through Lucifer's reign on the earth.Isaiah 14:12-14,Job 38:4-30.
8. The earth was created in day 3 of Genesis 1:9-13 for it was brought forth in the beginning and was in existence during the flood of verse 2. and during both day 1 and 2.
9.The earth was dry land for the first time in day 3 Genesis1:9-13.It was dry land from its creation in the beginning until the heavens and earth were flooded because of sin.
10. The earth brought forth vegetation for the first time in day 3.There had been fruitful places in Lucifer's kingdom that produced coal Jeremiah 4:23-28.
11. The sun,moon and stars were created in day 4.They were created in the beginning before the earth existed Job 38:4-7.
12. Birds,beasts, and man were first created in day 5 and 6 about 6-10,000 years ago.Some were created for Lucifer's kingdom and were destroyed in Lucifer's flood of verse 2(Isaiah 14:12-14,Jeremiah 4:23-28,2nd Peter 3:5-7.
13. Adam was the first man to ever walk on the earth.There were men in Lucifer's kingdom he ruled over until he rebelled.Isaiah 14:12-14,Jeremiah 4:23-28,2nd Peter 3:5-7.
15.The heavens and earth and all things in it are the products of evolution. God created them all.

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

I will sometimes make that same request. "Pick your one best" for, say, evidence of a world wide flood.
My observation is that discussions tend to spread out, like Nebraska's Platte River, a mile wide and an inch deep.

My idea is that one thing can be looked at in detail. Lets say it is seashells in Kansas prove flood.
That can be analyzed to see if it makes sense. You soon learn if the person is immune to reason or if they
are capable of seeing they had a mistaken idea on something.

Audie wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

I will sometimes make that same request. "Pick your one best" for, say, evidence of a world wide flood.
My observation is that discussions tend to spread out, like Nebraska's Platte River, a mile wide and an inch deep.

My idea is that one thing can be looked at in detail. Lets say it is seashells in Kansas prove flood.
That can be analyzed to see if it makes sense. You soon learn if the person is immune to reason or if they
are capable of seeing they had a mistaken idea on something.

Do you doubt that evolution science teaches a world wide flood billions of years ago?Don't they say comets brought the water to this earth and it flooded it?This was before the continent rose up I realize it is different than a biblical flood but my point is even secular science detects a world wide flood they just move it back billions of years because of evolution science.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

I will sometimes make that same request. "Pick your one best" for, say, evidence of a world wide flood.
My observation is that discussions tend to spread out, like Nebraska's Platte River, a mile wide and an inch deep.

My idea is that one thing can be looked at in detail. Lets say it is seashells in Kansas prove flood.
That can be analyzed to see if it makes sense. You soon learn if the person is immune to reason or if they
are capable of seeing they had a mistaken idea on something.

Do you doubt that evolution science teaches a world wide flood billions of years ago?Don't they say comets brought the water to this earth and it flooded it?This was before the continent rose up I realize it is different than a biblical flood but my point is even secular science detects a world wide flood they just move it back billions of years because of evolution science.

You got 3 major errors into the first sentence.

Here is just one, that you may be able to understand.

Earth history, land forms, process involved in their formation is the science of
Geology. Geology. Not "evolution science". Geology. Nothing to with evolution.
Geology.

There isnt really anything called "evolution science".

If you went a university and said you want to study evolution science they'd probably give you an odd look
and send you to the biology department. They'd have to sit you down and see what you really want to do and
how hard you are willing to work, explain what the scope of study is.

They'd tell you that
the theory of evolution is a central concept in biology, that not a lot would make
sense without it. They'd likely say you will pick up the idea as you go thru biol 101, 102, then intro to genetics,botany, invert zoology, vertebrate zool, genetics 2, etc.

I never took even one course called "evolution". None were offered at that school. It gets mentioned,
sure. Comparative anatomy would make little sense otherwise.

Evolution is applied simply as a way of looking at and understanding life on earth. Its not about floods and comets or anti god
or the illuminatti. I dont know where you get your ideas. I do know that a guy who thinks "evolution teaches" about floods and comets does not understand what he is talking about.

Audie wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Audie wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Thanks for the response and the information you gave but I would like to know what would change your mind about the Gap theory? I don't understand how if you read through and compared the information I gave to back it up that you could still reject it when I gave info that refutes many of the things critics of it say against the Gap theory and I don't see how you could believe them over the info I gave when their arguments were soundly and biblically refuted.

Biblical evidence. But I've studied this matter in great detail, and I've looked at all the passages you cited in your post (in addition to some others, too). I just don't the arguments anything like being remotely persuasive.

Tell you what. Pick the one verse that you think MOST STRONGLY warrants the GT. I don't want to try to discuss ten verses. One is sufficient. Otherwise, we'll just be hopping from verse to verse and not getting anywhere. So your pick. What's the strong one you have?

As for the Hebrews 1:2 issue, the Greek word is plural. It can be rendered "worlds," I suppose. "Ages," though, is a better translation. Take that for whatever that means for your position.

I will sometimes make that same request. "Pick your one best" for, say, evidence of a world wide flood.
My observation is that discussions tend to spread out, like Nebraska's Platte River, a mile wide and an inch deep.

My idea is that one thing can be looked at in detail. Lets say it is seashells in Kansas prove flood.
That can be analyzed to see if it makes sense. You soon learn if the person is immune to reason or if they
are capable of seeing they had a mistaken idea on something.

Do you doubt that evolution science teaches a world wide flood billions of years ago?Don't they say comets brought the water to this earth and it flooded it?This was before the continent rose up I realize it is different than a biblical flood but my point is even secular science detects a world wide flood they just move it back billions of years because of evolution science.

You got 3 major errors into the first sentence.

Here is just one, that you may be able to understand.

Earth history, land forms, process involved in their formation is the science of
Geology. Geology. Not "evolution science". Geology. Nothing to with evolution.
Geology.

There isnt really anything called "evolution science".

If you went a university and said you want to study evolution science they'd probably give you an odd look
and send you to the biology department. They'd have to sit you down and see what you really want to do and
how hard you are willing to work, explain what the scope of study is.

They'd tell you that
the theory of evolution is a central concept in biology, that not a lot would make
sense without it. They'd likely say you will pick up the idea as you go thru biol 101, 102, then intro to genetics,botany, invert zoology, vertebrate zool, genetics 2, etc.

I never took even one course called "evolution". None were offered at that school. It gets mentioned,
sure. Comparative anatomy would make little sense otherwise.

Evolution is applied simply as a way of looking at and understanding life on earth. Its not about floods and comets or anti god
or the illuminatti. I dont know where you get your ideas. I do know that a guy who thinks "evolution teaches" about floods and comets does not understand what he is talking about.

Come on! You know everything is looked at from an evolution perspective even geology.Are you saying geologists don't accept evolution?Not even a biologist can demonstrate scientifically that life evolves like dinosaurs evolving over time into birds,yet everything is looked at from this perspective even geology is today.

The vanity of the evolution vs creation debate.

http://www.kjvbible.org/thedebate.html