Doctrine of Hell

[dfnj]

I read the bible and have already backed up myself with scripture,you can look over them again and meditate on them just don't read them metaphorically and take them literal.I do not want you to believe my opinion at all I want you to believe God's word. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever,and they have no rest,day or night. This is what God's word says so it is not my interpretation.

The Bible was not written in English. Every word of the Bible is an interpretation. The Bible was not written by Jesus. So stop pretending you are speaking for God. If you are going to truly believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ then stop pretending that the people speaking for God are not doing so without any bias of personal prejudice.

I have always wonder if the passage was not God gave his only son. But it should have been translated as the father so loved his children that rather have them live under the tyranny of Roman totalitarian rule, the father choose NOT to have the children in the first place. Jesus was a radical and a threat to the power structure at the time. Otherwise the Pharisees would not have crucified him.

[B. W.]

What about the rich man who die. Whether it was a parable or not Jesus said he was living in fire and talked about others in that same fire. He said there was a great guff in between paradise and hell and that people could not go from hell to paradise or from paradise to hell. So according to Jesus you don't die.

It's a parable. So you think people in hell can talk?
Remember hell can be destroyed so what is it, bar a pagan doctrine?

John 14:6, "Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." NASB

Jesus' parables are based on truth as he cannot lie. In Luke 16:19-30 He speaks what He knows is true.

You mentioned that folks within hell cannot talk yet the bible contradicts you:

Ezekiel 32:21, "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' Review the rest of the chapter Ezekiel 32:21-31 from the Hebrew text. Very enlightening on the nature of the current Hell as a pit, round spiral like, with those who sent themselves there all on varied levels of torment, able to see, to speak to each other.

Job 26:5,6 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering. JPS

The Hebrew words express cognizance, not silence. Look up the word translated tremble...

Next, it is God who does not take away life, the spiritual being, type. That is a principle based upon the character of God and one reason that at some point in time he will rejoin the spiritual being with a body during the resurrection. Also the words translated destroy, destruction in context with this sunbect, do not convey non-existence but rather arriving in a state of perpetual ruin.

The OT concept of death was at the point of death one immediately awakens into a new life while the physical body looks asleep and unhearing, unseeing as all dead bodies are. The concept was that the body returns to the dust and the spirit return to God who made it, there to be judge. This truth was later brought out in the NT. Both OT and NT teach this.

Think of it, if one ceases to exist, then they have successfully gotten away with whatever crime the inflicted in mortal life. A Rapist, murder, or narcissists gets away with murder mayhem - here is no accounting. Instead of justice, they find rest of non-being and basically have gotten away with screwing up multiple of peoples lives. OT clearly teaches that there is no rest/peace for the wicked as well as...

Nahum 1:3 JPS, "The LORD is long-suffering, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is slow to anger, and plenteous in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and that will by no means clear the guilty..." JPS

Annihilationism clears the guilty and weakens the fear of the Lord. Why fear when you become so much burnt toast? You can sin and get your jollies, who cares, poof you are gone then nothingness. Why be moral, who cares?

All I can ask folks to do is think real hard not to make a mockery out of God's justice.

St Anselm mentioned that people... have not yet considered the depth of (their) sin.

Very true words. What human beings can do to each other is frightening. We see this with ISIS today and on the news concerning the depravity of criminal acts, However, what about what we do with our words to spread false witness about another, destroy confidence in another, lie, crush another to get ahead, steal their thoughts and ideas to make a buck and so much more....What do folks do lusting in their minds and daydreaming about doing to the family driving in a car that accidentally cut you off, causing you to miss your exit off the freeway?

Not sure anyone of truly sees what we a capable of, if we could just get away with it...

You have not yet considered the depth of your sin. St Anselm

2 Sam 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him". NASB

That way of escape is only thru Jesus Christ all other ways are built upon pride... so as Luke 18:13 says - please go do likewise

All I can suggest is that folks not make a mockery out of God's justice, his character, his nature.

Blessings
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[abelcainsbrother]

I read the bible and have already backed up myself with scripture,you can look over them again and meditate on them just don't read them metaphorically and take them literal.I do not want you to believe my opinion at all I want you to believe God's word. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever,and they have no rest,day or night. This is what God's word says so it is not my interpretation.

The Bible was not written in English. Every word of the Bible is an interpretation. The Bible was not written by Jesus. So stop pretending you are speaking for God. If you are going to truly believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ then stop pretending that the people speaking for God are not doing so without any bias of personal prejudice.

I have always wonder if the passage was not God gave his only son. But it should have been translated as the father so loved his children that rather have them live under the tyranny of Roman totalitarian rule, the father choose NOT to have the children in the first place. Jesus was a radical and a threat to the power structure at the time. Otherwise the Pharisees would not have crucified him.

It seems like when I back myself up with God's word the bible all I get are angry man opinions back that are not based on the bible. I back myself up with scripture for a reason,not to show off,or to think I know more than somebody else,etc,no,I do it because we as believers are supposed to go along with God's word. Please back yourself up with scripture because man's opinions do not matter. I guarantee that I go by God's word to the best of my ability but if I'm wrong about something biblically and somebody points it out to me,you will never see me get angry and give my heated opinions I will acknowledge I'm wrong and change my mind.Why can't others do this? We put our faith in God's word not mans opinions so please back yourself up with scripture if you think I'm wrong and I'll listen and admit if I overlooked it,am wrong,etc. We can learn from each other me included.I've been reading your posts and me and you agree on most everything that I can tell,so far but right now it seems you are going by your opinion instead of what the bible tells us about Jesus.

As you give your opinion about God the father and Jesus,God's son,you are starting to sound like a Muslim but this scripture pops in my head as you give your opinion. "And the gospel of this kingdom shall be preached and published and taught in all nations,languages and tongues and then shall the end come." I guess our English bibles are wrong,Spanish bibles,Chinese bibles,etc cannot be trusted because our all powerful God cannot communicate his word to all the different languages,is limited in his ability to speak other languages,I do not believe this at all,God loves all and wants to reach all,world wide regardless of languages.

[melanie]

What about the rich man who die. Whether it was a parable or not Jesus said he was living in fire and talked about others in that same fire. He said there was a great guff in between paradise and hell and that people could not go from hell to paradise or from paradise to hell. So according to Jesus you don't die.

It's a parable. So you think people in hell can talk?
Remember hell can be destroyed so what is it, bar a pagan doctrine?

John 14:6, "Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." NASB

Jesus' parables are based on truth as he cannot lie. In Luke 16:19-30 He speaks what He knows is true.

You mentioned that folks within hell cannot talk yet the bible contradicts you:

Ezekiel 32:21, "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' Review the rest of the chapter Ezekiel 32:21-31 from the Hebrew text. Very enlightening on the nature of the current Hell as a pit, round spiral like, with those who sent themselves there all on varied levels of torment, able to see, to speak to each other.

Job 26:5,6 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering. JPS

The Hebrew words express cognizance, not silence. Look up the word translated tremble...

Next, it is God who does not take away life, the spiritual being, type. That is a principle based upon the character of God and one reason that at some point in time he will rejoin the spiritual being with a body during the resurrection. Also the words translated destroy, destruction in context with this sunbect, do not convey non-existence but rather arriving in a state of perpetual ruin.

The OT concept of death was at the point of death one immediately awakens into a new life while the physical body looks asleep and unhearing, unseeing as all dead bodies are. The concept was that the body returns to the dust and the spirit return to God who made it, there to be judge. This truth was later brought out in the NT. Both OT and NT teach this.

Think of it, if one ceases to exist, then they have successfully gotten away with whatever crime the inflicted in mortal life. A Rapist, murder, or narcissists gets away with murder mayhem - here is no accounting. Instead of justice, they find rest of non-being and basically have gotten away with screwing up multiple of peoples lives. OT clearly teaches that there is no rest/peace for the wicked as well as...

Nahum 1:3 JPS, "The LORD is long-suffering, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is slow to anger, and plenteous in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and that will by no means clear the guilty..." JPS

Annihilationism clears the guilty and weakens the fear of the Lord. Why fear when you become so much burnt toast? You can sin and get your jollies, who cares, poof you are gone then nothingness. Why be moral, who cares?

All I can ask folks to do is think real hard not to make a mockery out of God's justice.

St Anselm mentioned that people... have not yet considered the depth of (their) sin.

Very true words. What human beings can do to each other is frightening. We see this with ISIS today and on the news concerning the depravity of criminal acts, However, what about what we do with our words to spread false witness about another, destroy confidence in another, lie, crush another to get ahead, steal their thoughts and ideas to make a buck and so much more....What do folks do lusting in their minds and daydreaming about doing to the family driving in a car that accidentally cut you off, causing you to miss your exit off the freeway?

Not sure anyone of truly sees what we a capable of, if we could just get away with it...

You have not yet considered the depth of your sin. St Anselm

2 Sam 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him". NASB

That way of escape is only thru Jesus Christ all other ways are built upon pride... so as Luke 18:13 says - please go do likewise

All I can suggest is that folks not make a mockery out of God's justice, his character, his nature.

Blessings
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-
-

I don't think annihilation is getting away with anything. It's final, concrete and justice served. By my opinion means didly squat to truth. Which is why I am not certain.
One can demonise Isis, rightly so. Without question.
One can demonise the U.S. with foreign policy, past military transgressions, some perhaps deemed righteous and others most certainly not.
Perhaps the questions remains not in immediate annihilation but when we are all judged when Christ returns for the final judgment. Then the tares are separated from the wheat??

[B. W.]

I don't think annihilation is getting away with anything. It's final, concrete and justice served. By my opinion means didly squat to truth. Which is why I am not certain.
One can demonise Isis, rightly so. Without question.

One can demonise the U.S. with foreign policy, past military transgressions, some perhaps deemed righteous and others most certainly not.

Perhaps the questions remains not in immediate annihilation but when we are all judged when Christ returns for the final judgment. Then the tares are separated from the wheat??

Hi Melanie, let me restate what said earlier on this thread: I understand that many Christians cannot understand this, and that is okay, go in peace, no condemnation or condescension from me toward any of you who hold to annihilationism in a Christianized sense. In time, you'll understand why hell has to be never ending when the true nature of evil's dysfunctional state is made known, and the true justice of God to remain true to himself in all things and ways is revealed.

For now, peace!!!

Yes, Christians can disagree on such matters as this the duration of hell and the self inflicted torments that are there. It is difficult to for folks to grasp do to many reason cited here on this thread and elsewhere on this Forum. Let me state this, hell is a place where a person's true self is revealed and the full force of dysfunction is made known. Imagine what it would be like in this mortal life if folks could get away with it and where it leads - that is the nature of the torment in hell exposing what people are truly like to each other, God, strangers, other things, etc, and etc... exposing the exploitation of God's gift of live and gaming of his character attributes that seeks to have God - lack for a better words - go against himself and thus ceasing to be God. No one in their right mind would want that, yet, dysfunction does...
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[abelcainsbrother]

What about the rich man who die. Whether it was a parable or not Jesus said he was living in fire and talked about others in that same fire. He said there was a great guff in between paradise and hell and that people could not go from hell to paradise or from paradise to hell. So according to Jesus you don't die.

It's a parable. So you think people in hell can talk?
Remember hell can be destroyed so what is it, bar a pagan doctrine?

John 14:6, "Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." NASB

Jesus' parables are based on truth as he cannot lie. In Luke 16:19-30 He speaks what He knows is true.

You mentioned that folks within hell cannot talk yet the bible contradicts you:

Ezekiel 32:21, "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' Review the rest of the chapter Ezekiel 32:21-31 from the Hebrew text. Very enlightening on the nature of the current Hell as a pit, round spiral like, with those who sent themselves there all on varied levels of torment, able to see, to speak to each other.

Job 26:5,6 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering. JPS

The Hebrew words express cognizance, not silence. Look up the word translated tremble...

Next, it is God who does not take away life, the spiritual being, type. That is a principle based upon the character of God and one reason that at some point in time he will rejoin the spiritual being with a body during the resurrection. Also the words translated destroy, destruction in context with this sunbect, do not convey non-existence but rather arriving in a state of perpetual ruin.

The OT concept of death was at the point of death one immediately awakens into a new life while the physical body looks asleep and unhearing, unseeing as all dead bodies are. The concept was that the body returns to the dust and the spirit return to God who made it, there to be judge. This truth was later brought out in the NT. Both OT and NT teach this.

Think of it, if one ceases to exist, then they have successfully gotten away with whatever crime the inflicted in mortal life. A Rapist, murder, or narcissists gets away with murder mayhem - here is no accounting. Instead of justice, they find rest of non-being and basically have gotten away with screwing up multiple of peoples lives. OT clearly teaches that there is no rest/peace for the wicked as well as...

Nahum 1:3 JPS, "The LORD is long-suffering, and great in power, and will by no means clear the guilty

Numbers 14:18, "The LORD is slow to anger, and plenteous in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and that will by no means clear the guilty..." JPS

Annihilationism clears the guilty and weakens the fear of the Lord. Why fear when you become so much burnt toast? You can sin and get your jollies, who cares, poof you are gone then nothingness. Why be moral, who cares?

All I can ask folks to do is think real hard not to make a mockery out of God's justice.

St Anselm mentioned that people... have not yet considered the depth of (their) sin.

Very true words. What human beings can do to each other is frightening. We see this with ISIS today and on the news concerning the depravity of criminal acts, However, what about what we do with our words to spread false witness about another, destroy confidence in another, lie, crush another to get ahead, steal their thoughts and ideas to make a buck and so much more....What do folks do lusting in their minds and daydreaming about doing to the family driving in a car that accidentally cut you off, causing you to miss your exit off the freeway?

Not sure anyone of truly sees what we a capable of, if we could just get away with it...

You have not yet considered the depth of your sin. St Anselm

2 Sam 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him". NASB

That way of escape is only thru Jesus Christ all other ways are built upon pride... so as Luke 18:13 says - please go do likewise

All I can suggest is that folks not make a mockery out of God's justice, his character, his nature.

Blessings
-
-
-

I don't think annihilation is getting away with anything. It's final, concrete and justice served. By my opinion means didly squat to truth. Which is why I am not certain.
One can demonise Isis, rightly so. Without question.
One can demonise the U.S. with foreign policy, past military transgressions, some perhaps deemed righteous and others most certainly not.
Perhaps the questions remains not in immediate annihilation but when we are all judged when Christ returns for the final judgment. Then the tares are separated from the wheat??

Have you ever focused on the bible scriptures about hell? Because I don't see how annihilation can be made to fit into them. Even if you disagree about fire in hell,it seems clear that those their are there forever knowing they rejected God's way to be saved.How can people talk in hell if they are annihilated?

[LittleHamster]

I found this explanation on hell ... http://www.researchersoftruth.org/what-is-hell

Anyone care to verify it ?

[Silvertusk]

There are two factors for me here.

1) You can interpret Conditional Immortality (Annihilation) and eternal conscious torment both in the bible. You can apply words like eternal or everlasting in both instances - whether it be eternal in its duration or eternal in its consequences. So ACB please get off your high horse. Daniels is using God's word and his interpretation of it, so are you. Who is correct - who knows. Check this link out to see that other interpretations are valid as well. - http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... tion/6.htm

2) For me it comes down to God's nature of being all-loving. No matter how much I try (even though BW promised this might happen) I cannot reconcile a Loving God creating a place of eternal suffering. It is a contradiction and goes against the very nature of God. To be this is a no-brainer. Annihilation seems to be the most loving thing a God can do for those that refuse to follow him. I would also go one step further to state that the memory of them would cease to exist as well as otherwise how would we be happy in Heaven knowing that some of our friends and loved ones are suffering for all eternity.

Silvertusk.

[RickD]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that God didn't create hell?

God did not create hell so much as he allowed for its possibility. By permitting us to love him freely—or not—he allows for the possibility that we will choose to separate ourselves from him. But God does not will this for anyone.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... yes-part-i

Did God create darkness?
No, darkness is just the absence of light.

So, hell is kind of like that.

And, couldn't it be that God allows hell because of His mercy?

Think about this, wouldn't it be worse if one who has chosen to reject God, was forced to spend eternity in God's presence?

Thoughts?

[jpbg33]

I see that people are saying God wouldn't send people to and everlasting torment because of his love. That is not the case you can see in the bible that God judged a lot of people with extreme punishment. What about the in the bible when God had the ground swallow up thousands of people or Achan and his family being stoned or whole cites being destroyed and every man women and child being killed. Gods love is his willingness to forgive to the outermost. The sinner is an enemy of God and the bible says he will destroy his enemies. The bible says "Jas_4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." " Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" " Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
". God does love but that does not mean he will not punish the sinner and Gods judgment is eternal.

[Kurieuo]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that God didn't create hell?

God did not create hell so much as he allowed for its possibility. By permitting us to love him freely—or not—he allows for the possibility that we will choose to separate ourselves from him. But God does not will this for anyone.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... yes-part-i

Did God create darkness?
No, darkness is just the absence of light.

So, hell is kind of like that.

And, couldn't it be that God allows hell because of His mercy?

Think about this, wouldn't it be worse if one who has chosen to reject God, was forced to spend eternity in God's presence?

Thoughts?

It's hard for me to fathom Hell, for if it exists then God must necessarily sustain it (since nothing exists a part from God who is pure existence).
So if Hell exists, then God is in a sense necessarily there holding it all together. And if people in Hell exist, then God is necessarily there sustaining them in existence.
Therefore God would be both in His kingdom (Heaven) and in Hell (sustaining it).

It's an odd thought that. I can't see any logic that says God could withdraw Himself entirely from Hell.
Unless Annihilitionism is true, for God would then be able to entirely withdraw Himself if such things ceased to exist.

So there are two coherent options as I see it:

1) Either Hell exists and God withdraws Himself as much as possible while sustaining it and still knowing everyone there. (in a sense God would therefore be eternally tormented by such knowledge, although of course God has a really, really infinitely huge shoulder to carry such a burden throughout eternity. Also says something of God's love and compassion, don't you think? Knowing the pain of everyone who is in Hell for the rest of eternity...)

2) Those who reject God cease to exist for God withdraws Himself entirely from such. Perhaps the "lake of fire" after judgement (??) -- truly a "second death". (Rev 20:14-15)

[RickD]

K wrote:
It's an odd thought that. I can't see any logic that says God could withdraw Himself entirely from Hell.
Unless Annihilitionism is true, for God would then be able to entirely withdraw Himself if such things ceased to exist.

Just thinking out loud...couldn't hell be in God's presence, but He removes His love and fellowship with those there?

The eternal separation from God in hell, is not spational separation from God, but separation of a relationship with God? Does that make any sense?

[Kurieuo]

K wrote:
It's an odd thought that. I can't see any logic that says God could withdraw Himself entirely from Hell.
Unless Annihilitionism is true, for God would then be able to entirely withdraw Himself if such things ceased to exist.

Just thinking out loud...couldn't hell be in God's presence, but He removes His love and fellowship with those there?

The eternal separation from God in hell, is not spational separation from God, but separation of a relationship with God? Does that make any sense?

Yes, that's what it would be -- God's fellowship is no longer there.
To those in Hell they would not see God at all, even if God sees and knows them.
While God would be necessarily present, God obviously wouldn't be present like He would be to those who'd be part of His kingdom.

I find it hard to fathom God could carry knowledge of those in Hell everlastingly. Why should God be tinged in such a way?
At the same time, it shows that God's necessarily separating those who rejected Him, is nonetheless gracious given God still has to know them and what they're experiencing (in virtue of God just being God).
So it isn't really an uncompassionate or unloving view of God at all, to think all who reject Him are eternally separated and punished in "Hell" (because God too is being punished in a sense).

Likewise, it is hard to fathom, that God would carry such a burden on into eternity rather than "do away with all evil".
So an Annihilation view starts looking more alluring in that I just don't like thinking that God would forever carry the burden of ALL in "Hell" (not just one person's experience, but everyone's!).
Seems terribly unfair to God.

However then, God's shoulders are infinitely broad. As Creator of all, and in virtue of God's goodness such would make Him somewhat responsible to all.
So such is all God's own responsibility to carry, and to do what He sees is best according to His goodness.

[Philip]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that God didn't create hell?

If it is a place and real, God created and sustains it. As He is not going to let rebels into Heaven (which would thus bring earth to Heaven - and all the terrible carnage that would mean), IF they remain alive - and as long as they remain alive He must have a place for them. And His justice obviously requires that the guilty are punished. I would guess some think they are punished severely (dependent upon the sins of each) and THEN annihilated. But it is repeatedly referred to as a real place in Scripture. And our friend BW sure believes in it! Sounds a bit like Star Trek's holodeck - except designed for sinners as they redundantly relive their sins and their impact. And just because He sustains it, does not mean it must be in His presence.

[abelcainsbrother]

There are two factors for me here.

1) You can interpret Conditional Immortality (Annihilation) and eternal conscious torment both in the bible. You can apply words like eternal or everlasting in both instances - whether it be eternal in its duration or eternal in its consequences. So ACB please get off your high horse. Daniels is using God's word and his interpretation of it, so are you. Who is correct - who knows. Check this link out to see that other interpretations are valid as well. - http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... tion/6.htm

2) For me it comes down to God's nature of being all-loving. No matter how much I try (even though BW promised this might happen) I cannot reconcile a Loving God creating a place of eternal suffering. It is a contradiction and goes against the very nature of God. To be this is a no-brainer. Annihilation seems to be the most loving thing a God can do for those that refuse to follow him. I would also go one step further to state that the memory of them would cease to exist as well as otherwise how would we be happy in Heaven knowing that some of our friends and loved ones are suffering for all eternity.

Silvertusk.

The bible tells you and it is not hard to understand even if it makes you uncomfortable.Why not just read every bible scripture about hell instead of reading a link?God's word tells us about hell.I know the idea of hell is uncomfortable to a lot of people but we really only have God's word to go by. And God will wipe away every tear himself for those that go to heaven.Why does it seem like anybody can give their opinion about hell and we accept it,then get angry at somebody who just tells us what the bible says about hell? How would it effect your belief in God if those that choose to go to hell are forever tormented in the flames of hell? I think no matter what we think,we do not need to desire a watered down version of God's truth.Show me in the bible where it leads you to accept annihilation.