Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:35 pm**

Mel, at the very least, we must admit that God decided to place certain people in time and place without the Gospel, and that He had some (ok, debatable) purpose for doing so. We also know from Scripture that He has condemned many people without the Gospel. And Paul informs us that people have long rejected God and been condemned, yet without them having the Gospel. He rhetorically even asks how people can even have the ABILITY to respond to that they have never heard, as IF, that is (at least, typically) impossible (and none of that means that He MIGHT not also reach some people directly, without using human messengers). We've got NO Scriptural examples of anyone, post-Christ, being saved without FIRST hearing the Gospel. We're told The Great Commission is crucial to reaching the unsaved for Christ. This means that there is a very good chance that those who live their live their lives without ever hearing the Gospel will not be saved - NOT because the Gospel has been withheld from them, but because of how they have responded (they PERMANENTLY reject Him) to what they DID know about God before they died (or for those living, when they die), that Paul appears to say ALL know. We see our own Western societies with the Gospel prolifically saturated and debated, yet look at the masses that want nothing to do with God. People saw Jesus do countless miracles - what more proof does one have than seeing Jesus in action, and yet the asserted He was of the devil.

So, for all those who never had the Gospel, I think there is a good chance they doomed themselves by rejecting God (even though they didn't know of Jesus). And I also sincerely hope I'm wrong!

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:12 pm**

Philip wrote:
This is a comment against those that KNOW and REJECT God, not those that have yet to understand who God truly is and His true Gospel.
That's a creative interpretation, but, I believe, is an incorrect one. Paul does not distinguish such a thing - not to mention he says that this basic knowledge of God has been around "since the creation of the world" and he uses the term "people" inclusively, even ending with "people" are without excuse. Not any certain people and not any specific group of people. You've read into the Scripture your interpretation of it. And when Scripture states, "it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile, does that not suggest that no Gentiles were saved before Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius? Remember, Peter didn't even realize that Gentiles COULD be saved. We've got no one being saved (post Jesus' Resurrection) until Cornelius and those with him. We've got not one example of anyone being saved without first hearing the Gospel. We've got many OT examples of heathens being condemned - these were people without even The Law of Moses.

Anyway, those insisting salvation apart from hearing the Gospel have no Scripture to back that up - it's mere speculation. And, to me, Romans 10:15 strongly suggests it's not possible.

What do you mean creative interpretation and Paul doesn't distinguish such a thing?
He plainly states it and makes note of those that HAVE BEEN told, HAVE BEEN taught the true gospel and reject it:
All of Romans 10 really:

The Word of Faith Brings Salvation
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,

“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

But here in particular Paul comments on those that are saved because they believe :

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

And what of those that do not believe because they do not know?

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Of course Paul also states that some DO know because they HAVE been taught AND have heard:

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
By a nation without understanding will I anger you.”
20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,

“I was found by those who did not seek Me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

IMO, that is a statement on those that HAVE heard the TRUE message and either reject it OR decide to rely on their own righteousness as opposed to grace:

For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:25 pm**

Paul: Of course Paul also states that some DO know because they HAVE been taught AND have heard:

18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,

Romans 10's ultimate focus is Jesus and faith in Him. Then it punctuates with the rhetorical question about "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?", etc. And then, immediately after that he, again, rhetorically asks, "have they not heard? Indeed they have, for a“Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

And so, this "voice," that has "gone out to all of the earth" is NOT the Gospel, but is rather the general revelation from what has been made, specifically, the heavens and stars. One, we know that the GOSPEL had NOT yet gone out to all of the earth - in fact, it STILL hasn't. And secondly, clearly, Paul is quoting Psalm 19:4, and he is referencing one of the powerful testimonies about God that the heathen well see and understand as a powerful testimony of His power and presence:

Psalm 19:4: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun. It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth."

“I was found by those who did not seek Me, I became manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

This is true of ALL believers, that God reaches to us FIRST. And "manifest" does not mean faith, but a clear and basic understanding of His existence and basic attributes. And "found" refers to those who have faith in Him, not those who are merely aware of Him, or even of His Law, etc.

21 But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
Here, we see His long and first focus was Israel, of whom, few ("only a remnant" of) find faith in Him.

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