The evil within us

[melanie]

We live under the gospel of Christ.
It has been challenged on here in the past how the new covenant relates to christians in regards to the OT.
Matthew 5:18
The laws purpose was fulfilled and it become obsolete. It was not destroyed by superseded by a higher law; the Gospel.

Why then when it suits do we use the OT as justification when we know better?

Pacifism is such a loosely coined term. It is not a definitive description of a particular ideology. It varies widely depending on who is 'borrowing' the term and for what purpose.

It is derives from the Latin word 'pacific' which means 'peace-making'. On the sermon of the mount Jesus says 'blessed are the peace makers'. 'peace makers' is the Greek word eirenopoios, eirênê meaning peace and poiesis 'to make'.

In this ideal, Jesus was a pacifist in every sense of the word.

I call myself a pacifist but I am not opposed to defending the lIves of others when faced with an imminent threat. It is intent. Always.
Police officers have one the most important jobs to do and unfortunately for the safety of others this means that at times they must use deadly force. Does that justify every single death at the hand of a police officer? No! I won't go into examples of why that is so, I think it speaks for itself.

If someone was hurting my children, imminent threat, I would do what ever it takes to protect them at all costs. It would be instinctual. If I was to form a vigilante coup after the fact and use my vengeance and retribution, no matter how justified it appears, that would be surpasses the instinctual behaviour to protect and would be murder.

If our borders were infiltrated and a foreign country was invading, I would personally defend my country and family, I would not flash them the peace sign and sing them Kambaya.

But I am opposed to the unjustified use of violence, by the state or the individual. So what is unjustified? I don't think its so hard to find the line. To protect our right or other's right to LIVE in an imminent threat. If there is no imminent threat or the driving force is revenge by the individual or greed or power or religious subservience by the state then there stands no justification. That justification does not stand by blindly following orders if one is in the military, the police force or any type of law enforcement. It does not stand by living in a glass house and throwing stones.

My country has partook in military action that was due to imminent threat and has also followed blindly into military action that they had no place or right to do so. It was not based on imminent threat but greed. I applaud the former and I stood in protest (literally) against the other.

I have heard stories of the most astounding acts of peace and love in the face of violence. Whether its Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela or the everyday person. To react with violence against violence is not courage, it's necessity. Some courageous acts have been done out of necessity, usually in the form of sacrafice but true courage takes its form in rising above violence and superseding it with love and 'peace-making'.

“No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”
Nelson Mandela


"The reason I can't follow the old eye-for-an-eye philosophy is that it ends up leaving everyone blind. Somebody must have sense and somebody must have religion. I remember some years ago, my brother and I were driving from Atlanta to Chattanooga, Tennessee. And for some reason the drivers that night were very discourteous or they were forgetting to dim their lights...And finally A.D. looked over at me and he said, 'I'm tired of this now, and the next car that comes by here and refuses to dim the lights, I'm going to refuse to dim mine.' I said, 'Wait a minute, don't do that . Somebody has to have some sense on this highway.'
Martin Luther King

[RickD]

Mel,

I think yours is a reasonable and consistent position. Pretty similar to my own.

[Kurieuo]

“There is nothing sacred or inherently superior about non-violent methods of struggle.” —Nelson Mandela

He was no Luther King or Gandhi.

[melanie]

Nelson Mandela in his earlier years was not a pacifist. He went against the African national congress' stance of resisting Aparthied by non violent means. He was angry and rightfully so. He gave the people a voice, a unified resistance to fight back. He basically instilled a mentality of 'f*** you, we are not taking this lying down'. I can't say I blame him. He gave the people pride in being black South African. The reality is though that people died, innocent people, civilains. As much as I understand the struggle and the atrocities of Aparthtied and to be honest I probably would have done the same thing, fought back, it did not end apartheid, it was a continuation of the violence.

The man that entered prison was not the man that left. He learned and studied the leadership ways of Gandhi and his non violent means to initiate change. Mandela called Gandhi his 'political guru. He negotiated through peaceful means and forgiveness to help bring an end to Aparthied, he showed the world that peaceful, diplomatic negotiation could prevail where only violence seemed possible. He saved South African from itself and in the end he did it peacefully.

That is why I admire him so much. He had the strength and courage to walk away from the path of violence. The power to change. To forgive. To find a better way.
What an inspiration!

[abelcainsbrother]

Nelson Mandela in his earlier years was not a pacifist. He went against the African national congress' stance of resisting Aparthied by non violent means. He was angry and rightfully so. He gave the people a voice, a unified resistance to fight back. He basically instilled a mentality of 'f*** you, we are not taking this lying down'. I can't say I blame him. He gave the people pride in being black South African. The reality is though that people died, innocent people, civilains. As much as I understand the struggle and the atrocities of Aparthtied and to be honest I probably would have done the same thing, fought back, it did not end apartheid, it was a continuation of the violence.

The man that entered prison was not the man that left. He learned and studied the leadership ways of Gandhi and his non violent means to initiate change. Mandela called Gandhi his 'political guru. He negotiated through peaceful means and forgiveness to help bring an end to Aparthied, he showed the world that peaceful, diplomatic negotiation could prevail where only violence seemed possible. He saved South African from itself and in the end he did it peacefully.

That is why I admire him so much. He had the strength and courage to walk away from the path of violence. The power to change. To forgive. To find a better way.
What an inspiration!

All I have to say is with America weakening w

[abelcainsbrother]

With America on the decline what is the rest of the western world going to do to stay safe when the east is strengthening right now?China,Russia and Islamic terrorism are gaining strength and you have not forgot about the cold war already?People around the world take it for granted how much America did to keep the world peaceful,yes we had allies that helped but we were the ones that stood up and said this can't happen,We've got to stop it and led.Who will lead if America continues on the decline? Canada?,Australia?Europe? I don't think so.I think God is going to allow what the world desires with the tribulation.

Then when America is attacked somehow seems to deserve it while trying to make the lives of Iraqi's better than they had it.

[Kurieuo]

I get what you're saying Mel and I have the utmost respect for those who reform themselves.



Gandhi and Martin Luther King were also against the taking of human life in the womb.
Unlike Mandela who brought in pro-abortion laws which have lead to millions of lives lost.

[melanie]

I get what you're saying Mel and I have the utmost respect for those who reform themselves.



Gandhi and Martin Luther King were also against the taking of human life in the womb.
Unlike Mandela who brought in pro-abortion laws which have lead to millions of lives lost.

Hmmm are you sure about that translation K?. I'm not.
Apparently what they are singing is Lama Bhulu which has a different meaning to Ama Bhulu. Lama Bhulu meaning the oppressive White system, the army, police force. It is a song that has been sung for many years predating Aparthied. It is a resistance song against oppression with cultural significance. Do you know how the blacks were treated? Have you seen the footage of police officers shooting black South Africans in the back as they ran away? It is a song about resisting the forces that oppressed and killed them for no reason apart from the colour of their skin.

So what's your prob with Nelson Mandela?

[Kurieuo]

Look into Mandela Mel.

[melanie]

With America on the decline what is the rest of the western world going to do to stay safe when the east is strengthening right now?China,Russia and Islamic terrorism are gaining strength and you have not forgot about the cold war already?People around the world take it for granted how much America did to keep the world peaceful,yes we had allies that helped but we were the ones that stood up and said this can't happen,We've got to stop it and led.Who will lead if America continues on the decline? Canada?,Australia?Europe? I don't think so.I think God is going to allow what the world desires with the tribulation.

Then when America is attacked somehow seems to deserve it while trying to make the lives of Iraqi's better than they had it.

Trying to make the lives of Iraqis better. What a crock. Do you really beleive that was Bush's intent? It's worked out splendidly for them

[melanie]

Look into Mandela Mel.

I have read that he had communist ideolgies.
I will dig a little further K.

[Kurieuo]

Look into Mandela Mel.

I have read that he had communist ideolgies.
I will dig a little further K.

And if you reach different conclusions to myself, that's ok.
At least you chose to look behind the veil.

I looked into Mandela a couple of years ago to reach my current conclusions.
Prior I had nothing against the man and thought him to be great like everyone else.

[melanie]

Look into Mandela Mel.

I have read that he had communist ideolgies.
I will dig a little further K.

And if you reach different conclusions to myself, that's ok.
At least you chose to look behind the veil.

I looked into Mandela a couple of years ago to reach my current conclusions.
Prior I had nothing against the man and thought him to be great like everyone else.

I think a lot can be found by looking behind the veil.
How far down the rabbit hole do you think his involvement and allegiances went?.....
Now I want to pick your brain
As I said I have read things about him but put it down to conspiracy and/or just people wanting to discredit him, but now you bring it up, I am intrigued.

[neo-x]

With America on the decline what is the rest of the western world going to do to stay safe when the east is strengthening right now?China,Russia and Islamic terrorism are gaining strength and you have not forgot about the cold war already?People around the world take it for granted how much America did to keep the world peaceful,yes we had allies that helped but we were the ones that stood up and said this can't happen,We've got to stop it and led.Who will lead if America continues on the decline? Canada?,Australia?Europe? I don't think so.I think God is going to allow what the world desires with the tribulation.

Then when America is attacked somehow seems to deserve it while trying to make the lives of Iraqi's better than they had it.

Yup very peaceful, nuking two cities, Vietnam, iran, iraq, taliban, drones....very peaceful indeed.

[RickD]

With America on the decline what is the rest of the western world going to do to stay safe when the east is strengthening right now?China,Russia and Islamic terrorism are gaining strength and you have not forgot about the cold war already?People around the world take it for granted how much America did to keep the world peaceful,yes we had allies that helped but we were the ones that stood up and said this can't happen,We've got to stop it and led.Who will lead if America continues on the decline? Canada?,Australia?Europe? I don't think so.I think God is going to allow what the world desires with the tribulation.

Then when America is attacked somehow seems to deserve it while trying to make the lives of Iraqi's better than they had it.

Yup very peaceful, nuking two cities, Vietnam, iran, iraq, taliban, drones....very peaceful indeed.

While I don't necessarily agree with you on all examples except for the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I can understand why you would say that from your pov. But saying the US bombing of two cities which consequently ended the war, and most likely saved tens of millions of lives as a direct result of Japan's surrender, was against peace, is ridiculous from any pov. Especially with the hindsight we have now.