Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

That would sure keep me too busy to play forum!

Audie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

That would sure keep me too busy to play forum!

I'm sure no one here would complain. Hehe...

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

That would sure keep me too busy to play forum!

I'm sure no one here would complain. Hehe...

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

That would sure keep me too busy to play forum!

I'm sure no one here would complain. Hehe...

Now you're definitely on the Aig* list!!!!


*Aig-abbreviation for Audie's ignore list. Ironically the same initials as Audie's favorite creosite.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:

1over137 wrote:Audie, you need to have at least 20 kids.

That would sure keep me too busy to play forum!

I'm sure no one here would complain. Hehe...

Now you're definitely on the Aig* list!!!!


*Aig-abbreviation for Audie's ignore list. Ironically the same initials as Audie's favorite creosite.

AiG bring it on! I'm ready for you.
I can smell the bacon... err, ham already!

Well from a survey of 35,000 of us people 23 % are nones (Atheists and agonists) remember 318 Million

At least in the USA, I think secularism is spreading. I remember an old atheist saying; as people become more educated they prefer teachers over preachers.
I don’t think it is a matter of education; but rather the fact that the entire country is moving to the political left. Many of today’s traditional conservative values would probably be considered liberal 50 years ago.
I remember years ago in two of the big cities near where I live, there used to be some
guys preaching fire and brimstone; telling everybody who pass by they are going to go to Hell if they don’t accept Jesus. Now at these cites there are just people peacefully passing out religious tracks to those who accept them. I remember one guy had a tee shirt that read; “always preach the Gospel; and occasionally even use words”
I think that says a lot about what people are willing to accept today compared to yesterday.

Ken

Ken,

Understand that there are two different theologies often in a tug-o-war within Christian circles.

What you are witnessing may not be a melt down into liberalism, but rather one theology winning out over the other.
Certainly though, the social climate has much influence over Christians who don't live in a bubble, but also live in their every day community and society.

What I'm talking about though, is a "works-based" versus "grace-based" theology, their extremes and all in between.

An extreme grace-based theology perhaps leads to complete liberalism, such that you may ultimately end up with Universalism (everyone saved).
An extreme works-based theology leads to carrying extreme burdens of guilt such that they're not really "free" at all in Christ.

So that preacher years ago in that city, perhaps there were very legalistic (works-based) Christian churches near by.
As for today's "always preach the Gospel; and occasionally even use words" such seems more inline with a grace-based approach.
Indeed, even more inline with what Scripture teaches. (1 Peter 3:15; Ephesians 4:15)

What good did the preacher do condemning people around him with fire and brimstone talk? If anything, he made himself look foolish and pushed people away.
Not even Christ came to condemn, but rather to draw people to himself via love and grace. (John 3:17)
So to anyone who goes all righteous with fire and brimstone talk, they're not conservative Christians, but behaving as foolish Christians in my opinion.
Such should pay heed to Jesus' words: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:2)

Those Christians in that same city/ies that you talk of today would appear to have greater understanding in their following of Christ and the way of the Gospel
-- "good news" which is all about God's grace rather than God's wrath.

Kurieuo wrote:Ken,

Understand that there are two different theologies often in a tug-o-war within Christian circles.

What you are witnessing may not be a melt down into liberalism, but rather one theology winning out over the other.
Certainly though, the social climate has much influence over Christians who don't live in a bubble, but also live in their every day community and society.

What I'm talking about though, is a "works-based" versus "grace-based" theology, their extremes and all in between.

An extreme grace-based theology perhaps leads to complete liberalism, such that you may ultimately end up with Universalism (everyone saved).
An extreme works-based theology leads to carrying extreme burdens of guilt such that they're not really "free" at all in Christ.

So that preacher years ago in that city, perhaps there were very legalistic (works-based) Christian churches near by.
As for today's "always preach the Gospel; and occasionally even use words" such seems more inline with a grace-based approach.
Indeed, even more inline with what Scripture teaches. (1 Peter 3:15; Ephesians 4:15)

What good did the preacher do condemning people around him with fire and brimstone talk? If anything, he made himself look foolish and pushed people away.
Not even Christ came to condemn, but rather to draw people to himself via love and grace. (John 3:17)
So to anyone who goes all righteous with fire and brimstone talk, they're not conservative Christians, but behaving as foolish Christians in my opinion.
Such should pay heed to Jesus' words: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:2)

Those Christians in that same city/ies that you talk of today would appear to have greater understanding in their following of Christ and the way of the Gospel
-- "good news" which is all about God's grace rather than God's wrath.

Good points! Thanx. Has there always been these opposing theologies going back and forth? Did this exist in your father's day? Your Grandfather's day? Or is this tug-o-war a recent phenomena?

Ken

Kenny wrote:At least in the USA, I think secularism is spreading. I remember an old atheist saying; as people become more educated they prefer teachers over preachers.
I don’t think it is a matter of education; but rather the fact that the entire country is moving to the political left. Many of today’s traditional conservative values would probably be considered liberal 50 years ago.
I remember years ago in two of the big cities near where I live, there used to be some
guys preaching fire and brimstone; telling everybody who pass by they are going to go to Hell if they don’t accept Jesus. Now at these cites there are just people peacefully passing out religious tracks to those who accept them. I remember one guy had a tee shirt that read; “always preach the Gospel; and occasionally even use words”
I think that says a lot about what people are willing to accept today compared to yesterday.

Ken

I see it as a product of the state problem.Too many people are products of the state,these people were produced over time by the state to vote for things they would not have voted for before,they are politically correct people who have been groomed to just go along with it and not go against the grain.I myself refuse to be a product of the state, I think for my self and don't go along with political correctness at all and I will never call right wrong and wrong right,no matter what.

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Ken,

Understand that there are two different theologies often in a tug-o-war within Christian circles.

What you are witnessing may not be a melt down into liberalism, but rather one theology winning out over the other.
Certainly though, the social climate has much influence over Christians who don't live in a bubble, but also live in their every day community and society.

What I'm talking about though, is a "works-based" versus "grace-based" theology, their extremes and all in between.

An extreme grace-based theology perhaps leads to complete liberalism, such that you may ultimately end up with Universalism (everyone saved).
An extreme works-based theology leads to carrying extreme burdens of guilt such that they're not really "free" at all in Christ.

So that preacher years ago in that city, perhaps there were very legalistic (works-based) Christian churches near by.
As for today's "always preach the Gospel; and occasionally even use words" such seems more inline with a grace-based approach.
Indeed, even more inline with what Scripture teaches. (1 Peter 3:15; Ephesians 4:15)

What good did the preacher do condemning people around him with fire and brimstone talk? If anything, he made himself look foolish and pushed people away.
Not even Christ came to condemn, but rather to draw people to himself via love and grace. (John 3:17)
So to anyone who goes all righteous with fire and brimstone talk, they're not conservative Christians, but behaving as foolish Christians in my opinion.
Such should pay heed to Jesus' words: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt 7:2)

Those Christians in that same city/ies that you talk of today would appear to have greater understanding in their following of Christ and the way of the Gospel
-- "good news" which is all about God's grace rather than God's wrath.

Good points! Thanx. Has there always been these opposing theologies going back and forth? Did this exist in your father's day? Your Grandfather's day? Or is this tug-o-war a recent phenomena?

Ken

How long have these competing theologies been around for?

Well the Apostle Paul and Peter did dispute each other over related matters.

You have Jewish Christians towards whom Peter ministered to.
And then you had Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians to whom Paul ministered.
The clash of the Jewish Law with grace extended to Gentiles who were an unclean people and kept no such customs caused some division.

From Galatians 2:7-9:

• Seeing that I [Paul] had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8 (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised [Jews] effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

And then the dispute in Galatians 2:11-21 (listen to Paul's rebuke - ouch!):

• Peter (Cephas) Opposed by Paul
  11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
  
  15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. 17 But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

But, Peter knew Paul was right because before this exchange happened he reports in a vision (Acts 10:9-23):

• 9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
  
  17Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; 18and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. 19While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20“But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” 21Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” 22They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.” 23So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

And then in Acts 15 the dispute reported by Paul in Galatians unfolded (Acts 15:1-11):

• 1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
  6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Paul really takes the cake later on in Galatians 5:1-15 with how much he is repulsed by those who preach works.
Such that Paul preaches if a person wants to be enter into a covenant of Law with God (as symbolised by circumcision), then they're under the whole obligation to keep the Law.
Therefore to such, Christ will be of no benefit because they're trying to justify themselves by works (the Law) rather than receive God's grace and forgiveness that having Christ stand in on our behalf brings.

• 1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
  2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
  
  7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
  
  13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

So how long have these competing theologies been around for? Well, basically since Christ left.
Peter did concede to Paul as above and both agreed with each other on what was right
(although I could imagine Peter was quite embarrassed with Paul putting him on the spot).

There is something about us that makes us feel uncomfortable with our faults and just accepting something.
We find it hard to accept ourselves. Feel we need to earn our way. How can God accept us who is meant to be perfection?

I've said elsewhere that I think we're often more hung up on our "sin" than God.
Keep in mind God created all the while knowing ALL of us would sin, and while something God had to deal with, nonetheless God saw it as better to create than not.

That's not to say we shouldn't try to self-improve, but I do find it interesting that Jesus' two commandments were to love God and each other.
And yet, many Christians tend to focus on self-perfection and getting hung up on this or that sin in their life -- keeping a bunch of thou "shall nots" when Jesus only spoke of two "shalls". (Matthew 22:36-40)

I here like what Peter says: "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." (1 Peter 4:8)
God's love for us does just that in Christ. A bit of a play on words perhaps, since we can't hide our sins from God
-- but Peter's words do evidence to me the higher importance focusing on loving others over self perfection.

Such is the freedom only a true "grace" can provide us with.

I think the bigger problem is the fact that people are just using fear to get people to accepted God and not love

UsagiTsukino wrote:I think the bigger problem is the fact that people are just using fear to get people to accepted God and not love

Oh, you know, some try the hellfire and brimstone thing, others try the "love" thing, some try the "philosophy-prove-god" thing.

Some discredit anything they say with nutty beliefs they promote.
A guy talks about how he saw a werewolf and some chubacabre, who will believe he saw a flying saucer?

The Moslems dont scare me with their promise that I will hang by my hair in eternal fire for not covering my head in public.

The "problem" with Christianity, if problem it is, is that its not very believable.

Audie wrote:

UsagiTsukino wrote:I think the bigger problem is the fact that people are just using fear to get people to accepted God and not love

Oh, you know, some try the hellfire and brimstone thing, others try the "love" thing, some try the "philosophy-prove-god" thing.

Some such as discredit anything they say with nutty beliefs they promote.
A guy talks about how he saw a werewolf and some chubacabre, who will believe he saw a flying saucer?

The Moslems dont scare me with their promise that I will hang by my hair in eternal fire for not covering my head in public.

The "problem" with Christianity, if problem it is, is that its not very believable.

Yea, I'm saying we shouldn't scare people into accepting Christ.

Audie wrote:

UsagiTsukino wrote:I think the bigger problem is the fact that people are just using fear to get people to accepted God and not love

Oh, you know, some try the hellfire and brimstone thing, others try the "love" thing, some try the "philosophy-prove-god" thing.

Some such as discredit anything they say with nutty beliefs they promote.
A guy talks about how he saw a werewolf and some chubacabre, who will believe he saw a flying saucer?

The Moslems dont scare me with their promise that I will hang by my hair in eternal fire for not covering my head in public.

Audie wrote:The "problem" with Christianity, if problem it is, is that its not very believable.

Why not?