Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote: So, lets talk about the 10 commandments then.
Where in those 10 does it state WHICH date is the Sabbath?
Which commandment prohibits the consumption of any type of food or drink?

The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Ask yourself, how come the week is kept world over, in all countries, until this day. It doesn't matter how many times you change the date, the week days remain in the same order. Dates don't change the week days.

Which commandment prohibits eating food which is detrimental to your health?

If we knowingly trash our health, when better opportunities are available, we are defiling the temple of God.

You dishonor God by making your own choices above His - Law 1
You have made your ideas an idol - Law 2
You have taken the name of God in vain - Law 3
You disregard God as Creator - Law 4

You don't care about the life that came via your parents - Law 5
You are prepared to destroy the life force- what God says you ought to care about - Law 6
You are cheating your own health and therefor the rights of your wife to have a good looking and fit husband - Law 7
You are stealing away the health God gave you - Law 8
You are living a lie, because you claim to be godly - Law 9
You did the whole thing because you are covetous - Law 10

Do the ten commandments say anything against speeding in your car? Smoking cigarettes? Drinking alcohol?

The ten commandments cover every sin possible to man, in fact, every sin is recorded under one of these commandments.
If we break one, we break them all. So sin has no place in God, in His law, in heaven, and in His spirit.

Which sins should God allow? White lies, occasional indulgences, a little gossip, a sly remark, minor sarcasm, a little pride? Does not God hate the minor sins because they go unchallenged by those who profess godliness?

Don't worry, none is righteous, I am a good sample of a hypocrite, but what then is the Christian's hope if not relying on total renewal by Christ. He can and will do it.
We cannot afford to look at ourselves for any spirituality. The law is only there so that if we become disillusioned or confused or separate from Christ, we cannot kid ourselves, because the law is simple, eternal and clear, but of no help to sinners, and we have to go back to Him, for grace, protection and a new heart, that does not want to sin anymore.

You and I don't want to sin, and yet we often do. It is no reason to give up faith, or to imagine the ten commandments are missing or just given for Moses. If we could build our own righteousness, we'd have done it by now, but we can't. We can only live by faith and hope and love. And leave it up to God to change us.

Like King David, we love the law of God, because it sets the standard of God's dealings with us as well.

Law 1, He will not treat you, like you are somebody else.
Law 2, He will not make an image of you and look after it instead.
Law 3, He will never use your name in vain.
Law 4, He has guaranteed you undivided attention for one day a week, if you want it.

Law 5, He will not dishonor the means by which you came into life or are sustained by life.
Law 7, He will never betray you.
Law 8, He will never steal from you, but be generous to you.
Law 9, He will never gossip about you.
Law 10, He will never secretly wish you were somebody else.

That's just beautiful, isn't it?

I'm just wondering why the ten commandments are considered to be the enemy?

I am wondering where on earth you got such a silly idea?

The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Ask yourself, how come the week is kept world over, in all countries, until this day. It doesn't matter how many times you change the date, the week days remain in the same order. Dates don't change the week days.

First off I already explained why the Sabbath is on Saturday, tradition.
As any Rabbi or Rabbinic scholar and they will tell you the same thing.
There is NO mention of which day should be the Sabbath but since, for the Jew, the first day of thr week was what we call Sunday now, it only made sense to make the sabbath the last day of the week ( what we call Saturday).
It was a cultural thing for them.
In cultures where the LAST day of the week is Sunday then, following the very same pattern that the Jews used to decide which day was the sabbath, then Sunday makes sense to be the Sabbath.

The point being that the commandment to keep the sabbath ( which according to the OT and NT is for Jews and for those that live with Jews only) is to work 6 days and rest on the seventh, period.

If you want to interpretate that any other way great, just don't go around saying that the bibles says to do that because it simply does not.

In short:
The OT explicitly states that the Jews are to work 6 days and rest on the seventh. It does NOT mention WHICH days to work or rest on.
THe OT and NT both explicitly state that the Sabbath is to be kept by the Jews and those living with the jews.
The NT explicitly states that Gentiles are NOT under the Sabbath law AND both Paul and the council of Jerusalem make that explicit.

Anything beyond the above is NOT biblical and a matter of personal decision which NO MAN may judge. It is between the believer and Christ.

From what I have read the Sabbath is a Biblical topic, and not one that depends on the Rabbis, who incidentally, were responsible for slaying the prophets throughout times past and Christ. That reputation is not in their favor.

In regards to freedom of choice in keeping the Sabbath, and freedom from judgement of another man or organisation on this subject, I fully agree with you, and I hope that you will be a champion for that truth in the future as well. God bless.

Starhunter wrote:From what I have read the Sabbath is a Biblical topic, and not one that depends on the Rabbis, who incidentally, were responsible for slaying the prophets throughout times past and Christ. That reputation is not in their favor.

In regards to freedom of choice in keeping the Sabbath, and freedom from judgement of another man or organisation on this subject, I fully agree with you, and I hope that you will be a champion for that truth in the future as well. God bless.

The Sabbath IS a biblical topic and biblically speaking we have explicit statements in the OT and NT in regards to WHO is to keep the Sabbath, HOW they are to keep it and who is NOT under the Sabbath law.
We we do NOT have explicitly stated in the OT is WHAT day to keep the Sabbath ( Saturday is based on tradition, not on the bible).
We also have explicit statements in the OT and NT that state that non-jews are NOT under the Sabbath Law UNLESS they reside with Jews.
Saying that ALL are under the Sabbath law is going BEYOND what is taught in the OT and NT and we are warned to avoid doing that very thing.

I have no problem with you or anyone else CHOOSING to keep the Sabbath, I do ( though I keep it on Sunday because that is the end of the work week in Canada), BUT I do have a problem with anyone saying that ALL believers must keep the Sabbath and keep it just as Jews do it and saying that the bible commands it when the bible clearly DOES NOT.

PaulSacramento wrote:
I have no problem with you or anyone else CHOOSING to keep the Sabbath, I do ( though I keep it on Sunday because that is the end of the work week in Canada), BUT I do have a problem with anyone saying that ALL believers must keep the Sabbath and keep it just as Jews do it and saying that the bible commands it when the bible clearly DOES NOT.

How true.
It seems to me, like we may have a battle ahead of us in the future as Sunday worship becomes civil law, by demand of the people in general.

There are texts which tell us that the ten commandments are still God's standard at the very end of time, such as those texts found in the last book of the Bible.

This raises another question, if the ten commandments were done away with at the cross, or whether they only apply to the Jews etc.
We could argue that the Bible was only written for the Jews and early Christians and no one else.
If that is the case, then we don't need to worry about anything, especially the mark of the beast which would then only affect Jews and early Christians. Neither would we look for the second Advent of Christ as Adventists do.

SDA's have confirmed what I have always suspected as a child, and throughout my entire life, that the Papacy is the beast spoken of in Daniel and Revelation. All the reformers, which I love, taught that, and nearly all of the millions of martyrs knew it.
I have always thought that the mark of the beast would be something lawless against God such as a religious injunction that contravenes the law of God.
Now I cannot doubt that the mark will be a civilly enforced as a day of worship ---Sunday keeping instead of the Sabbath, and that it will receive honor and obedience from the world, if not already, who will panic over the conditions in the world and call for a return to God in more ways than one.
So what seems like a good idea so far as law and order go, it is designed by Satan to "deceive if possible the very elect."

The arguments against the commandments of God have no basis in scripture, so far as I can see.

But like you said, we could simply apply the OT to the Jews and the NT to the early church.

The Pope seems to be fairly intent on having the Sunday honored, and I think that it will become the dividing issue of worship in the future. If not, then the mention of the commandments of God - whenever the issue of the mark is raised - would just be incidental.

We will have to see what the future brings, but at least we have heard things from both sides of the argument beforehand, which is a blessing.

Starhunter wrote:I'm just wondering why the ten commandments are considered to be the enemy?

"To love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself." How hard can that be? Too hard for many.

Nothing wrong with that, at all, we love the ten commandments, EXCEPT NUMBER 4 the Sabbath, in particular the seventh day Sabbath. Sunday - OK, Friday OK, Wednesday OK, but Saturday "- Noooo ! Not Saturday the seventh day."
Wow, that is desperate.

Let's forget the Sabbath, and stay with the text that says "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath."
Mark 2:27.

Our greatest scholars here will tell us that the word "man" means "Jew," because the commandments were given to the Jews, and therefore whatever was given to the Jews is all for the Jews only - like all of the Old Testament as well. But especially the fourth commandment on the Sabbath - it's for the Jews only.
Then in I Corinthians 11:9 it says that the woman was created for "man," and not the other way around.
Consulting with our greatest bottle hugging scholars - "Man" means "Jew" and therefor women were only made for the "Jews."
Hands off the women Christian Gentiles.

Back to alcoholics anonymous, today we find many professions where it is dangerous to have any amount of alcohol in the blood, and why is that dear scholars of renown? because lives are at stake with positions of extreme responsibility, and alcohol in the blood interferes with sound judgement.
In fact many governments have passed laws to make it illegal to have a blood alcohol level on certain jobs. You can be jailed for having a mild drink on the job.

But here is the so called Christian minister and or ordinary witness for the King of the universe, with many eternal lives at stake, an extremely high responsibility and privilege, - holding onto the bottle, off guard to the enemy of souls, allowing his mind to be temporarily numbed, perhaps lacking self discipline for the greater good...?

(Edited)

Did you not know that the Priest and Levites broke every Sabbath and violated every Holy Day by doing work?

They were required to maintain the Temple sanctuary, the items in the temple, 24/7 every day of the year. The baked the showbread and were required to replace it daily as well as keep the oil in lampstand and wicks trimmed as well as the incenses burning. They were required to slay animal sacrifice every Sabbath as well too. Don’t believe me? Then read Exodus thru Numbers... concerning the Temple and sacrifice duties.

Then, by Jesus' time on this earth, the Pharisees walked more than a mile to look for Sabbath breakers and covenant violators on the Sabbath. When Jesus mentioned to them that the Father works on the Sabbath and that He also likewise works, he was reminding them that they strayed from the real purpose of the Sabbath: God’s rest of Grace which continues to work overlooking the sins so his people can find true rest for his or her soul.

Jesus was reminding them (the Priest and Levites) that they worked on the Sabbath as God’s representatives symbolically dispensing God’s Grace that atones or sins just as God does by not wiping out humanity for our sin (straying off into sinful dysfunction).

Somewhere, due to Human sin nature the Priests, Levites, scribes, and Pharisees twisted God’s commands to them and sought to become enforcers over the people looking and working really hard to find (uncover) any infraction committed by the common people to ensure God’s blessings flow with them as God's ruling regents.

That is legalism. Much of what legalist 7 day types do today. In doing so, they too forget they too violate the spirit of the Sabbath – which is God’s Grace displayed at work forgiving – releasing his people from the bondages of sin – even the ones his folk fail to see so that we can rest secure in Him.

It is sad to see people forgetting this truth in exchange to be a proud enforcer...

Lastly Star:

The word Jew Means: The confessors of Praise -- and does not mean man - in fact Adam (man) means - ruddy as in reddish earth...
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Well said, BW, that's legalism and neglect by the Jewish nation.
Easily replicated by all the Cains of the world, who bring a fancy offering to God, but not what He asked for.
God said "Sacrifice and offerings I desired not..." But a contrite heart.
"To obey is better than sacrifice." God wants obedience, because their cannot be love between God and man, unless man submits himself to God as the Creator.
People prefer to have a system of beliefs rather than giving God glory by obedience from the heart.

Of course, not all were negligent in Israel, but many were truly converted, and their praise and worship was meaningful to God.

We cannot afford to let the neglect of others to thwart loyalty to God.

As the Lord said "If you love me, - keep my commandments." Who gave the commandments to Moses and wrote them with His own finger? Was it not the Son of God?

There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments.

If anyone can show me what is wrong with any of the ten commandments... we should have a look at it.

Starhunter wrote:Well said, BW, that's legalism and neglect by the Jewish nation.
Easily replicated by all the Cains of the world, who bring a fancy offering to God, but not what He asked for.
God said "Sacrifice and offerings I desired not..." But a contrite heart.
"To obey is better than sacrifice." God wants obedience, because their cannot be love between God and man, unless man submits himself to God as the Creator.
People prefer to have a system of beliefs rather than giving God glory by obedience from the heart.

Of course, not all were negligent in Israel, but many were truly converted, and their praise and worship was meaningful to God.

We cannot afford to let the neglect of others to thwart loyalty to God.

As the Lord said "If you love me, - keep my commandments." Who gave the commandments to Moses and wrote them with His own finger? Was it not the Son of God?

There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments.

If anyone can show me what is wrong with any of the ten commandments... we should have a look at it.

Straw man.

As the Lord said "If you love me, - keep my commandments." Who gave the commandments to Moses and wrote them with His own finger? Was it not the Son of God?

There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments.

If anyone can show me what is wrong with any of the ten commandments... we should have a look at it.

The 10 commandments are the core, the base, the foundation of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths.
There is nothing wrong with the 10 commandments and, even though they were given to the Jews only at the time, there is nothing wrong with anyone not a jew following them.

Of course NOWHERE in the 10 commandments is a SPECIFIC DAY refereed to as the day to keep the Sabbath.
It simply states, literally:
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

So, anyone that works 6 days and rests the 7th is keeping the Sabbath commandment because that is exactly what it says.

Starhunter wrote:Well said, BW, that's legalism and neglect by the Jewish nation.
Easily replicated by all the Cains of the world, who bring a fancy offering to God, but not what He asked for.
God said "Sacrifice and offerings I desired not..." But a contrite heart.
"To obey is better than sacrifice." God wants obedience, because their cannot be love between God and man, unless man submits himself to God as the Creator.
People prefer to have a system of beliefs rather than giving God glory by obedience from the heart.

Of course, not all were negligent in Israel, but many were truly converted, and their praise and worship was meaningful to God.

We cannot afford to let the neglect of others to thwart loyalty to God.

As the Lord said "If you love me, - keep my commandments." Who gave the commandments to Moses and wrote them with His own finger? Was it not the Son of God?

There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments.

If anyone can show me what is wrong with any of the ten commandments... we should have a look at it.

The law, the bible says, was our tutor to lead us to Jesus and define sin. The 10 Commandants are in fact better defined as the 10 Responsibilities we have to God and each other. defined in that manner, we still need a savior...

Do you understand this?
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PaulSacramento wrote: Of course NOWHERE in the 10 commandments is a SPECIFIC DAY refereed to as the day to keep the Sabbath.
It simply states, literally:
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
So, anyone that works 6 days and rests the 7th is keeping the Sabbath commandment because that is exactly what it says.

Sunday is the first day of the week, because God began Creation on that day, and He blessed the seventh day. It has to be plain and simple in the Bible so that no one need be mistaken about what God means. But it has also been written in such a way that the wise in their own eyes, may be confounded.

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Of course NOWHERE in the 10 commandments is a SPECIFIC DAY refereed to as the day to keep the Sabbath.
It simply states, literally:
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
So, anyone that works 6 days and rests the 7th is keeping the Sabbath commandment because that is exactly what it says.

Sunday is the first day of the week, because God began Creation on that day, and He blessed the seventh day. It has to be plain and simple in the Bible so that no one need be mistaken about what God means. But it has also been written in such a way that the wise in their own eyes, may be confounded.

It is plain and simple, the commandment says to work 6 and rest 1, period.
Doesn't say anything other than that.
You are reading tradition into what is written.

B. W. wrote: The law, the bible says, was our tutor to lead us to Jesus and define sin. The 10 Commandants are in fact better defined as the 10 Responsibilities we have to God and each other. defined in that manner, we still need a savior...
Do you understand this?
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Yes, that's what the Bible teaches, the law cannot save, but only Christ will bring obedience to His people, by writing the law in their hearts and minds.

Hebrews 8:10, speaks about the purpose of the new covenant, applied after the earthly temple service had ceased at the cross.
Hebrews 3:19, says that the covenant between God and the Jews failed, not because of the law He gave, or of His grace and forgiveness, but because of their own unbelief.

The problem with humanity has always been the obedience of faith. But Christ has opened a new way by which man may obey - through faith in Him. And He performs the transformation of the heart, and the works which come out as a result, are not thoughts and acts of disobedience, but of loving obedience.

Hebrews says that the ancient Jews had the Gospel preached unto them as well. Hebrews 4:2. There is no new Gospel but a new agreement or covenant for that same Gospel.

And it goes on to say that the Sabbath is the symbol of the rest we take in Christ. Because "He rested from all His works" on that day, and so we celebrate the Sabbath as a day of rest from work, but more so because of the rest we have in Christ - everyday of the week.

Rest from what? Rest from trying to save ourselves through anxiety, distrust, legalism, presumption and even self belief systems.

It is saying that the Lord is "the author and finisher of our faith."
We accepted Christ by faith and "we are saved by faith," right until we enter heaven.

Hebrews 10:22 to 31, makes it very clear that the ministry of Christ in this new covenant, is even more serious than the one handed down at Sinai. And it points out that sin is not acceptable to Christ, but pardon and repentance is acceptable. And the reason Paul can be so bold on this, is because faith in Christ has always been the way that man can changed, and that as Christians it is our duty to encourage each other to love and good works verse 24.

But we cannot be innocent if we dismiss the standard of God's righteousness which is laid out in unmistakable terms in the ten commandments.
We may see that righteousness, not in the law, but in the life and face of Jesus Christ.
He lived the perfect life of obedience, and all those who place their trust in Him to save them from sin, have His victory stand for them before God.

The Jews in general did not trust the Lord on Sinai, they did not accept His protection by faith, they ran and broke the commandments.

Will we run too, or stand by faith and say, Lord you have promised to give us a new heart, on this we trust?

God cannot bless His people unless they are willing to have the law written on their minds and hearts.

God cannot bless His people unless they are willing to have the law written on their minds and hearts.

So, Christ's sacrifice was not enough??