Evidence for God from Science

questioner22 wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So what made you re-evaluate what you believe?
I have no problem with your pov even if I disagree with it, I just cannot fathom how, if you were once so sure, you have changed your mind. As far I see (and I admit I may be wrong) nothing that has been put forward by science disproves God.
I have only recently come to Christ yet my life has changed so much since then, for the better. How can that be wrong? I can`t see anything, ever, shaking my faith so what shook yours so? To the point of saying you no longer believe? Doubts I can understand but a total change of mind?

Long story, but it started with a lull in my faith where I just couldn't hear God anymore, and reading the Bible had no impact on me whatsoever (this was never the case before). I was praying, begging God to reveal himself to me. Not for a sign, or a miracle...just that I'd feel his presence again. After a couple years of this, I decided to open myself up to exploring Christianity from a secular viewpoint - something I'd never done. As I stated before, if all you ever do is read Christian apologetics, you'll never know the arguments against your position. Much like if you were witnessing to a Mormon and wanted him to see the error of Mormon doctrine, you wouldn't recommend he pick up an apologetic work written by a Mormon author. But that's what Christians do, and then because they read a book by Lee Strobel, they think the case for Jesus Christ is absolutely bulletproof. They read a book by Ken Ham, and think that evolution is laughable - only a theory (I encourage you to read up on what it takes to be considered a 'theory' in science).

It took very little time after reading books by Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and actually a great book called 'Why I Believed' by Kenneth Daniels, a former Wycliff Bible Translator missionary that, like me, decided to question, and found his faith didn't stand up to logic, reason, and evidence.

Long story, but it started with a lull in my faith where I just couldn't hear God anymore

EssentialSacrifice wrote: Sister Theresa of Calcutta never heard the call of God for 70 + years... her faith was not shaken and her continued journey saved hundreds of thousand of lives and brought even more to death's door step close to and in union with God.

questioner22 wrote:

EssentialSacrifice wrote: Sister Theresa of Calcutta never heard the call of God for 70 + years... her faith was not shaken and her continued journey saved hundreds of thousand of lives and brought even more to death's door step close to and in union with God.

This makes perfect sense to me and how I view the world. She was being honest in those letters. That has to be difficult for a believer to reconcile. It didn't rattle me at all when the pastor of my church was kicked out after his wife filed a restraining order...or when the pastor of my in-laws church went to jail for child porn. Terrible people do terrible things. Hard to make this stuff mesh when you think God's in control of putting certain people into positions of authority.

Storyteller wrote:

questioner22 wrote:

Storyteller wrote:If I am wrong, and there is no God, then I lose nothing. If you`re wrong, and there is, you lose everything.

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote:

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote: Again, if you have a specific issue you want to discuss, maybe a specific bible verse, then post it please. I generally don't make it a habit of locking topics, but this is going nowhere fast. And If I get a sense that you are here only to attack, then you will be banned.

The ball is in your court.

Isaiah 7. Please read the entire chapter and answer the following questions:
1. What was Ahaz worried about?
2. What did the Lord promise Ahaz?
3. What sign was the Lord going to give Ahaz?
4. What was this sign supposed to signify to Ahaz?
5. How could Ahaz know that the prophecy was in fact fulfilled (with respect to what he was worried about)?

After you answer these questions in your reply, I want you to then go on and explain to me how Isaiah 7 has anything whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ. No smoke - no mirrors - no laughing this challenge off and telling me how scholars hundreds of years ago put this issue to bed. Please answer the 5 questions above, then the ensuing question about Jesus. There. That's my very specific issue.

1. What was Ahaz worried about?

2. What did the Lord promise Ahaz?

3. What sign was the Lord going to give Ahaz?

4. What was this sign supposed to signify to Ahaz?

5. How could Ahaz know that the prophecy was in fact fulfilled (with respect to what he was worried about)?

After you answer these questions in your reply, I want you to then go on and explain to me how Isaiah 7 has anything whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ. No smoke - no mirrors - no laughing this challenge off and telling me how scholars hundreds of years ago put this issue to bed. Please answer the 5 questions above, then the ensuing question about Jesus. There. That's my very specific issue.

RickD wrote:Ok, as far as how Isaiah 7 has "anything whatsoever" to do with a Messianic prophecy about Christ, I guess I'd say the following:

I'm no Hebrew expert, but the word translated as "virgin", in Isaiah 7:14 is the Hebrew word `almah . It means a young woman of marriageable age. But from what I understand, `almah is never used in the OT when referring to married women. And again, from what I understand, it's the only word in Hebrew that unequivocally signifies an unmarried woman, which may be a virgin. Instead of using the Hebrew word bethula, which means virgin, Isaiah may have been saying that the mother was simply an unmarried young woman, or a virgin. Which leaves open the possibility that Isaiah was talking about a double fulfillment. A young woman in Isaiah's day(read forward to Isaiah 8, up to verse 10), and a virgin many years later(Matthew 1:23).

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote:Ok, as far as how Isaiah 7 has "anything whatsoever" to do with a Messianic prophecy about Christ, I guess I'd say the following:

I'm no Hebrew expert, but the word translated as "virgin", in Isaiah 7:14 is the Hebrew word `almah . It means a young woman of marriageable age. But from what I understand, `almah is never used in the OT when referring to married women. And again, from what I understand, it's the only word in Hebrew that unequivocally signifies an unmarried woman, which may be a virgin. Instead of using the Hebrew word bethula, which means virgin, Isaiah may have been saying that the mother was simply an unmarried young woman, or a virgin. Which leaves open the possibility that Isaiah was talking about a double fulfillment. A young woman in Isaiah's day(read forward to Isaiah 8, up to verse 10), and a virgin many years later(Matthew 1:23).

Ok, so well done on the first 5 questions. I was looking for something a little different in 5., (namely that the land of the 2 kings he dreaded will be laid waste), but I realize it was a clumsily asked question on my part. When you got to the question about Jesus, you somehow derailed and went off on the word almah, completely ignoring your very own answers to 1-5 above. I'm asking you to tie together the birth of Jesus as somehow a sign to Ahaz who lived many hundreds of years prior as fulfillment of a promise made about 2 kings in Ahaz' day that he was worried about invading his country. Can you take another stab at it?

*Note: This is where someone jumps in and pastes a link that they just found from a Google search, upon hearing of this problem for the very first time. The link will no doubt talk of 'dual prophecy', despite the fact that none of us has ever heard of this term in relation to the virgin birth in any sermon, ever.

RickD wrote:

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote:I didn't ignore my 1-5 answers. My 1-5 answers were answered as directly as I thought possible, to the questions you asked.

I don't believe the birth of Jesus was a sign to Ahaz. I already thought I made that clear with my answer to your question #5. As far as a sign to Ahaz, I said to read forward to Isaiah 8:1-10.

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote:

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote:I didn't ignore my 1-5 answers. My 1-5 answers were answered as directly as I thought possible, to the questions you asked.

I don't believe the birth of Jesus was a sign to Ahaz. I already thought I made that clear with my answer to your question #5. As far as a sign to Ahaz, I said to read forward to Isaiah 8:1-10.

Wait-what?!?! So you're admitting that Matthew had it wrong when he erroneously implied that the 'virgin shall conceive' prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus? Remember, you already answered that the sign to Ahaz was that a young woman/virgin would conceive and bear a son and call his name Immanuel, and you further said that this was fulfilled later in Isaiah. So where is the tie in between this prophecy and Jesus?

14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a [l]virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name [m]Immanuel.

RickD wrote: If it's a double fullfillment, I believe it's tied into Jesus, here in Isaiah 7:14:

14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a [l]virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name [m]Immanuel.

When the Lord was speaking to Ahaz in verse 14, He referred to Ahaz as "you plural". Which I think was God referring to Ahaz, and the house of David.
So, the prophecy was a sign to Ahaz, fullfilled in Isaiah 8:1-10. And a sign to the house of David, fulfilled at Christ's birth.

The prophecy was a sign that God was with His people.

questioner22 wrote:

RickD wrote: If it's a double fullfillment, I believe it's tied into Jesus, here in Isaiah 7:14:

14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a [l]virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name [m]Immanuel.

When the Lord was speaking to Ahaz in verse 14, He referred to Ahaz as "you plural". Which I think was God referring to Ahaz, and the house of David.
So, the prophecy was a sign to Ahaz, fullfilled in Isaiah 8:1-10. And a sign to the house of David, fulfilled at Christ's birth.

The prophecy was a sign that God was with His people.

I hope you're at least a little embarrassed by this answer. Look, I'm not going to belabor the point, but this is pure nonsense, and I maintain that it's highly likely that the only people who hold to what you just said are those that had to look it up because someone challenged them on it. And no, I can't prove this. But I've sat through a looooooooottttta Christmas sermons, and I never heard any reference to this. Even graduated from a Christian college with a minor in Bible - and never heard this in any class.

I think it speaks volumes that Jews do not look at Isaiah 7:14 as a Messianic prophecy, with some hidden, dual fulfillment. Why would they? A prophecy is given to Ahaz, and later fulfilled. You have to read into the text something that is not there to make it be about Christ. And if this makes sense to you, or anyone else reading it - congrats. You are guaranteed to be a lifelong believer. If that passage doesn't give you pause, nothing will.

questioner wrote:
I hope you're at least a little embarrassed by this answer. Look, I'm not going to belabor the point, but this is pure nonsense, and I maintain that it's highly likely that the only people who hold to what you just said are those that had to look it up because someone challenged them on it. And no, I can't prove this. But I've sat through a looooooooottttta Christmas sermons, and I never heard any reference to this. Even graduated from a Christian college with a minor in Bible - and never heard this in any class.

I'm not going to belabor the point, but this is pure nonsense

and I maintain that it's highly likely that the only people who hold to what you just said are those that had to look it up because someone challenged them on it.

And no, I can't prove this

But I've sat through a looooooooottttta Christmas sermons, and I never heard any reference to this. Even graduated from a Christian college with a minor in Bible - and never heard this in any class.

And if this makes sense to you, or anyone else reading it - congrats. You are guaranteed to be a lifelong believer. If that passage doesn't give you pause, nothing will.